Well, I've been thinking on it. I'm sorry you find no value.
Drop the S31 show for a Captain Pike show?
- Thread starter Tom
- Start date
That’s part of the problem. There’s no reason the character should have been that black-and-white in the first place. TOS was far more sophisticated in 48 minutes 50+ years ago.
The Mirror universe power structure is about survival. It makes sense that such a black and white view would develop after killing your way to the top.
The "Mirror universe power structure" is about a quarter-inch deep, does not bear close analysis, and is inhabited mainly by caricatures of already existing characters who are themselves broadly drawn.
One of those over-the-top cartoon characters will be leading the Section 31 series.
One of those over-the-top cartoon characters will be leading the Section 31 series.
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There is still psychology to it.
And even if I'm overthinking it do what? Trek fans do that all the time. Mirror universe fascinates me on a psychological level.
I take it you've never lived in a totalitarian state before. Some of those situations and attitudes are not so far-fetched.
That statement is as vapid and empty a stab at a one-upping comeback as any parodist could invent.
Some of you are too hung up on Georgiou being a "cannibal". It's not so bad. She won't eat you if she doesn't like you.
I mean, that's definitely a good reason to stay in the friend zone.
There's a problem here and I don't know what the solution is. There probably isn't one. That's the part that concerns me. Based on how things have gone with other series, this will go on for years. This is just the beginning.
Clearly with DSC's relation to TOS resolved at the end of this season, for better or worse, that leaves looking at just the Discovery-native elements of the show. The thorniest one being Georgiou, so now that's going to attract more of the negative energy overall than it ever did before. And it will multiply when her own series actually starts. This is a situation I see becoming worse, not better.
No matter who disengages from the discussion, someone else will always be there, and it seems as if it'll never not be a stone wall against a stone wall.
Clearly with DSC's relation to TOS resolved at the end of this season, for better or worse, that leaves looking at just the Discovery-native elements of the show. The thorniest one being Georgiou, so now that's going to attract more of the negative energy overall than it ever did before. And it will multiply when her own series actually starts. This is a situation I see becoming worse, not better.
No matter who disengages from the discussion, someone else will always be there, and it seems as if it'll never not be a stone wall against a stone wall.
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Pretty much, yes. Would love more thoughtful discussion but that seems to have fled.
Nah, just speaking from the perspective of having lived in a country while it was still struggling to move on from its totalitarian past. The whole system, top to bottom, was built on fear. Lots of the attitudes that we tend to dismiss as unrealistic - often because of Western upbringing and personal experience - were commonplace. But as has been said, there's always hope for nations and individuals (which most people agree is a truly Trek value).That statement is as vapid and empty a stab at a one-upping comeback as any parodist could invent.
Short of that, I'd even actually be okay with "agree to disagree". That's been my go-to last resort for 20 years. But, in this case, it doesn't look like it's happening. At all. I want to "agree to disagree". Very much.
We need to resolve this. And I'd like to think we should be able to resolve it among ourselves as posters. If a thread is closed by moderators because we couldn't work out our differences, then it's a failure on our parts.
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We have differences of opinion and we're going to agree that we disagree and respect that we see things differently. We're going to respect that we have different backgrounds, different experiences, that we like different things, and that we get different things out of Star Trek and that we all see different places that it can (or can't) go and what we think it should (or shouldn't) be.
I bear no ill will toward any poster who disagrees with me about Georgiou or any other aspect of Star Trek, nor will I question anyone else's motives for being here. This is a discussion that got out of hand, including from me. It takes someone to own up to that to get this ball rolling toward a better and more productive time here, someone who has to say they want this to be a better place where all opinions are considered and respected, and we might as well start here.
I bear no ill will toward any poster who disagrees with me about Georgiou or any other aspect of Star Trek, nor will I question anyone else's motives for being here. This is a discussion that got out of hand, including from me. It takes someone to own up to that to get this ball rolling toward a better and more productive time here, someone who has to say they want this to be a better place where all opinions are considered and respected, and we might as well start here.
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Completely agree. I genuine do not care if people take different inspiration from Star Trek than I do. I personally welcome it. But, I also want a genuine conversation, which might involve dealing with highly uncomfortable facets of what Star Trek has had in its past. I don't think that Georgiou is out of place in the morally questionable and evil characters that have populated the show in the past. But, it's OK if others do.
However, in order for this conversation to continue there needs to be common ground. Whether that common ground is rooted in an uncomfortable acceptance of this character being in Star Trek despite wishes that she was not there or something along those lines.
But, I don't see this going forward without common ground. More's the pity.
I'm all for people having a chance to redeem themselves. But at some point, there's a boiling point, after which this redemption has to be made in a life-long prison.
We have multiple former Al-Quaida leaders in prison cells. Many of them have actual real remorse - because most of those dudes really were the product of their environment, and their time in prison really is the first time they got an objective view at the world, books to read, get to know the Western legal system from the inside, the possibility to continue to practice their religion....
And yet, NO ONE would hire ANYONE of them to do black-ops mission against Americans or Europeans on Western soil!
That would be just plain stupid.
And none of them even commited genocide and cannibalism.
We have multiple former Al-Quaida leaders in prison cells. Many of them have actual real remorse - because most of those dudes really were the product of their environment, and their time in prison really is the first time they got an objective view at the world, books to read, get to know the Western legal system from the inside, the possibility to continue to practice their religion....
And yet, NO ONE would hire ANYONE of them to do black-ops mission against Americans or Europeans on Western soil!
That would be just plain stupid.
And none of them even commited genocide and cannibalism.
Can we avoid the real world analogies? We've been down this road and it got this thread locked.
We've seen in fiction the use of questionable people doing morally bad things, including in Starfleet and the Federation. You can decry as stupid all you want but there it is. We either deal with the show as it is or just move on. At this point, it seems like moving on is in the best interest of all parties because this isn't a productive discussion.
So, you weren't a "Dexter" fan either then...got it.
BTW - I guess that also means you wouldn't want to watch the "Khan " miniseries that Nicholas Meyer proposed either as hell, per Spock Khan bombed wholes segments of Human population out of existence.
Alex Kurtzman said:
- More 'Star Trek' shows will be announced so we could still get a "Pike" series at some point.
- That the Section 31 show will take place in the 23rd century era.
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Did the government hire him to head up a department knowing he was a homicidal maniac?
It does surprise me that people don’t get what my actual objection is.
Did the government hire him to head up a department knowing he was a homicidal maniac?
It does surprise me that people don’t get what my actual objection is.
Yes, because governments never do morally suspicious things or hire amoral people? Oh, wait...yeah, they do.
Sorry, these objections make less and less sense no matter how much they get repeated.
Also, as has been repeated also, Georgiou is not the head of S31, nor does her being the lead on a Star Trek show make her a "good guy."
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