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Drop the S31 show for a Captain Pike show?

Drop the Section 31 show for a the Pike show?

  • Yes, I want a Pike show, and do not want a Section 31 show.

    Votes: 124 55.9%
  • No, I want a Section 31 show, and do not want a show with Pike.

    Votes: 9 4.1%
  • I want a show that feature both Pike and crew on the Enterprise and Section 31 with Georgiou.

    Votes: 23 10.4%
  • I trust CBS to give me something I will like!

    Votes: 12 5.4%
  • I want to see both! as separate shows.

    Votes: 54 24.3%

  • Total voters
    222
Some members of this forum are very quick to point out inaccuracies in other members posts yet are quite happy to spout it themselves, others then start parroting them and entire threads end up full of halo polishing bullshit.

Not you specifically though, thats why I didnt reply directly to your post in this instance.

At the end of the day its horrible but it isnt cannibalism, I must admit I am very surprised to hear it from you of all people as you normally show more sense even when you dont particularly like something.
I genuinely think eating sentient humanoids is equal to cannibalism in the Trekverse.
There is a bit too much holier than thou going on again in the threads (again not you specifically) and most of it is due to the dislike of Georgiou and the upcoming S31 show, it wouldnt be so bad if it didnt show such unwarranted bias against a show we havent even watched yet.

Take @BillJ as an example, it may surprise everyone to know that he is not a fan of Discovery (sorry for outing you :biggrin:) which is fair enough but at least he watched it first before passing judgement.

Dont get me wrong if I had to I choose between the S31 show and a Pike/Enterprise show it would not be a hard decision but that doesnt mean I wont give the S31 show a fair chance, just like I have with Discovery.
While I thought the show a catastrophic mistake and sure-fire flop upon it's initial announcement, after season 2 of Disco I have warmed to the idea somewhat. As others have said, Georgiou was a product of her universe and ingrained with a bunch of deeply messed up values. They played it for laughs in S2 ("I thought there were no stupid ideas?" when she suggests mass murder) but it remains to be seen where it goes.
Mind you I am not surprised the threads have devolved again, there isnt much else to talk about at the moment, any eta on the Short Treks?
Ethan Peck's gonna be in one:techman:
 
I genuinely think eating sentient humanoids is equal to cannibalism in the Trekverse.

While I thought the show a catastrophic mistake and sure-fire flop upon it's initial announcement, after season 2 of Disco I have warmed to the idea somewhat. As others have said, Georgiou was a product of her universe and ingrained with a bunch of deeply messed up values. They played it for laughs in S2 ("I thought there were no stupid ideas?" when she suggests mass murder) but it remains to be seen where it goes.

Ethan Peck's gonna be in one:techman:
It was added for shock factor, yet in the real world cannibalism does happen and often in the most dire of circumstances and hunger (it's easy for most to play the outrage card but true hunger when approaching death can make even the most moral person think twice), I just feel using the term when it doesn't actually qualify is a bit much, especially when it's not even in the real world and was done by a member of the MU not the PU.

The show may not be as bad as some are making it out to be, plus I also think that some of the more contentious events that happened in S1 can be somewhat ignored as I suspect the writers may have been high at the time. :biggrin:

S2 felt like a reboot of a reboot anyway and was all the better for it.

I really didn't think much of PU Georgiou and didn't bat an eyelid when she died, although the stunt with the telescope being better than the ships sensors did make me laugh and the less said about Sareks hologram and the table the better, whereas the introduction of MU Georgiou creates lots of new possibilities and will ensure it won't just be another clone show.

Heaven forbid that a Star Trek show have a bit of bite and substance to it, the S31 show can cover that base leaving the way clear for a potential Pike/Enterprise show to provide the true vintage Star Trek experience that some are clearly hoping for. :techman:
 
Horseshit.
Pretty much yeah, like I said before earlier in this thread I wouldnt mind if the decision was made to dump the S31 show and MU Georgiou, if it guaranteed that a Pike/Enterprise show would happen as it would stand a better chance of success and be a bigger draw for the CBS all access platform.

I have no real bias towards MU Georgiou although I do think the character is more interesting than the PU version could ever be but if I was asked to choose between Pike and any Georgiou my choice would be an easy one.

Some on this forum dont like the idea of an organisation that operates in the shadows and recruits operatives who are willing to do whatever it takes, whereas I feel it adds to the richness of the Star Trek universe as a whole, most of the other races have equivalent organisations anyway and it stands to reason that the Federation would too.

The S31 show and characters deserve a fair shot just like Discovery received.
 
Have any of the DS9 writers/producers said anything about Discovery's version of S31 (or Into Darkness', which is very much the blueprint for Disco's)? Is there a definitive answer about S31's original intent?

Personally, I loved the idea that Sloan was behind the whole thing, and everyone else was tricked into thinking there was much more of S31 than there really was. But of course ENT definitively canonized the idea that it's existed for 200 years (and the novelverse made them the masterminds of every questionable Starfleet decision ever)
I don't remember. It's been a long time, so I'll have to look it up. Ron Moore used to do Q&A's at time. I don't know if they still exist.

I have the DS9 Companion but I'm not home. I'll check that too when I get a chance. Unless someone beats me to it.

So I'm going to look to see what I find in the DS9 Companion now -- because I said I would -- and then wrap this all up in a tiny, little bow. One way or another. Let's see what they say...

Only quoting the relevant parts.

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Quoted from "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion" (2000), written by Terry J. Erdmann with Paula M. Block
Page 551-552:
"Section 31 grew out of grew out of a line of dialogue in 'The Maquis, Part II,'" Ira Steven Behr says, still intrigued by the subtext of the words he'd written in the second-season teleplay: "It's easy to be a saint in paradise."

"It came from my growing realization that we could do more with the Star Trek franchise than we'd initially thought we could. It was the idea of culpability, the idea that we should avoid knocking the Federation and we should avoid knocking Starfleet, but we could knock elements of them."

The theories behind Section 31 are diabolical. "Why is Earth a paradise in the twenty-fourth century?" Behr asks. "Well, maybe it's because there's someone watching over it and doing the nasty stuff that no one wants to think about. Of course it's a very complicated issue," he adds. "Extremely complicated. And those kinds of covert operations are usually wrong!"

When Behr saw an opportunity to explore the dark side of paradise, he took it. The result was "Inquisition". Of course, as one would expect from the executive producer's creative mind, he found that opportunity in the most unlikely of places, in what Bradley Thompson calls "a cute little romp about dealing with the Department of Motor Vehicles on a Sunday."

That "cute little romp" was one of many story ideas purchased from freelancers over the years. In this one, "Bashir went to a planet to do something really nice, like saving the lives of everyone on the whole planet," Thompson says. "He parked his runabout in orbit, and when he finished doing this wonderful thing, he found out that his runabout had been towed and he had a parking ticket! So he had to go up against the bureaucracy. It was the ultimate genetically engineered human against the ultimate bureaucratic red tape."

"When Brad told me about that story, I said, 'That's Franz Kafka's The Trial, with Bashir,'" comments David Weddle. "The Trial has always been one of my favorite novels. Then we went to lunch with Ira and told him about it, and he immediately spun it into the concept that you see in the episode, with this secret organization in Starfleet that's interrogating Bashir through a holoprogram that he doesn't realize is a holoprogram. And that's where we started writing."

"Suddenly, it stopped being a romp and it became this nightmare," Thompson laughs.

"I wanted to do something with spies and Bashir in the real world, after doing it in the holosuite so much," Behr explains -- although, ironically, the story still wound up taking place in a holosuite.

"The idea of establishing a behind-the-scenes, shadowy organization was very much Ira's thing," notes Rene Echevarria, who provided input on the script, "But we have to thank Brad and David for the work they did with Sloan as the inquisitor. They did a lot of research and managed to put together a very compelling case for Bashir in fact being what Sloan was saying he was. They found things that could be construed as suspicious in "Statistical Probabilities" and all the way back in "Hippocratic Oath".

[Post edited only to correct typos.]
 
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The theories behind Section 31 are diabolical. "Why is Earth a paradise in the twenty-fourth century?" Behr asks. "Well, maybe it's because there's someone watching over it and doing the nasty stuff that no one wants to think about. Of course it's a very complicated issue," he adds. "Extremely complicated. And those kinds of covert operations are usually wrong!"
I love this. Let's be clear-just because it is part of Star Trek, or the Federation, doesn't make it right.
 
Some on this forum dont like the idea of an organisation that operates in the shadows and recruits operatives who are willing to do whatever it takes, whereas I feel it adds to the richness of the Star Trek universe as a whole, most of the other races have equivalent organisations anyway and it stands to reason that the Federation would too.

I've always liked the idea, that by-and-large, the Federation are the good guys. Yes, people periodically fall off the apple cart, they are human. But an organization that are essentially bad guys being responsible for us being able to get along just doesn't sit very well with me, it never has.

The whole idea of Star Trek is that we grew up to a degree. The presence Section 31 kinda kills that idea, kinda kills what makes Trek unique.
 
I've always liked the idea, that by-and-large, the Federation are the good guys. Yes, people periodically fall off the apple cart, they are human. But an organization that are essentially bad guys being responsible for us being able to get along just doesn't sit very well with me, it never has.

The whole idea of Star Trek is that we grew up to a degree. The presence Section 31 kinda kills that idea, kinda kills what makes Trek unique.
For me, I don't think the presence of S31 automatically means they keep the Federation safe. Yes, that is their argument, but we see people like Kirk, Picard and Sisko and Janeway all forge alliances and negotiate peace without their help.

To me, it is a storytelling device designed as a dark mirror for human beings and their tendencies.

Odo:
The one thing I've learned about humanoids is that in extreme situations, even the best of you are capable of doing terrible things.

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For me, I don't think the presence of S31 automatically means they keep the Federation safe.

I'm not talking about "safe", I'm talking about them being responsible for who we are and what we accomplish in the Trek universe. Think about it: someone becomes popular and wants to upset the Federation apple cart with radical thinking. It isn't us that rejects it, it is Section 31 maneuvering to either discredit or kill someone who attempts to upset the apple cart.

We really didn't "grow up" at all. We are just sheep being manipulated, much like today. And if that's all we really are, then the message of Star Trek, that we can grow up and get along, is largely meaningless.

That is my simple take on it all. Why I don't think Section 31 has a place in the Star Trek universe. YMMV.
 
I'm not talking about "safe", I'm talking about them being responsible for who we are and what we accomplish in the Trek universe.
I don't believe that is what Section 31 is for a second. We have seen so many examples of many different reactions by characters to "upsetting the apple cart" that I have no doubt that people are capable of growing and changing within Star Trek universe. The fact that Section 31 exists is an outgrowth of humanity's desire to survive. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Wpyenek.jpg
 
I still think Section 31 is a necessary evil and the Federation would've fallen apart without it hundreds of years ago. That's not me being cynical about humanity, that's me being realistic about the Federation's neighbors. I agree with Odo's observation: the Romulans have the Tal Shiar, the Cardassians have had the Obsidian Order until very recently, the Dominion had changeling infiltrators... and worst of all, it wasn't only the Dominion utilizing deep undercover agents to subvert the Federation. Every single enemy the Federation ever had utilized surgically or otherwise altered agents working behind the lines: the Klingons had Tyler!Voq and Arne Darvin, the Tal Shiar has been using undercover agents trying to destabilize Vulcan since the 22nd century, the Cardassians had Seska and Raymond Boone, and even the Orion Syndicate had Thelev.

Even better; many of these undercover agents have been found by the crews of the Enterprise/DS9 in really high-level positions: Thelev and the Tal Shiar's Subcommander Selok have both posed as high-level members of the diplomatic corps for who knows long, Arne Darvin and Talok have both served as attachés to key government officials, the Dominion was able to successfully infiltrate and bomb a government-level diplomatic meeting in Antwerp, not to mention how effortlessly one of them impersonated Admiral Leyton with only his open hostility towards Odo suggesting something was wrong. There are also the well known foreign examples of Colonel Lovok and the Martok Changeling. And we could even add Gabe Lorca to the mix whose true identity was only found out after he had already succeeded in returning to his home universe.

If there's one thing consistent about how the Federation is portrayed is how susceptible it is to being infiltrated by its enemies. You might say that the Enterprise successfully exposed Darvin, but the changeling who bombed Antwerp was successful, as was Selok who was unknowingly ferried back to the Tal Shiar by the Enterprise itself. The Krajensky changeling's mission to get the Federation and the Tzenkethi into a war was only barely averted. I'd definitely say that Starfleet and more specifically Starfleet Intelligence is woefully inadequate against these kinds of threats, given that most of these plots were only exposed when the Enterprise was in the right place at the right time. Who knows how many more of these attempts were only thwarted by Section 31?
 
I don't believe that is what Section 31 is for a second. We have seen so many examples of many different reactions by characters to "upsetting the apple cart" that I have no doubt that people are capable of growing and changing within Star Trek universe. The fact that Section 31 exists is an outgrowth of humanity's desire to survive. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Wpyenek.jpg
Yeah, it's easy to be squeaky clean when the sun is shining and no one wants you dead.

What matters the most is survival when your back is to the wall, anything else will result in death.

We may want to do the right thing but that doesn't mean much if an opponent doesn't think and act the same.
 
I still think Section 31 is a necessary evil and the Federation would've fallen apart without it hundreds of years ago. That's not me being cynical about humanity, that's me being realistic about the Federation's neighbors. I agree with Odo's observation: the Romulans have the Tal Shiar, the Cardassians have had the Obsidian Order until very recently, the Dominion had changeling infiltrators... and worst of all, it wasn't only the Dominion utilizing deep undercover agents to subvert the Federation. Every single enemy the Federation ever had utilized surgically or otherwise altered agents working behind the lines: the Klingons had Tyler!Voq and Arne Darvin, the Tal Shiar has been using undercover agents trying to destabilize Vulcan since the 22nd century, the Cardassians had Seska and Raymond Boone, and even the Orion Syndicate had Thelev.

Even better; many of these undercover agents have been found by the crews of the Enterprise/DS9 in really high-level positions: Thelev and the Tal Shiar's Subcommander Selok have both posed as high-level members of the diplomatic corps for who knows long, Arne Darvin and Talok have both served as attachés to key government officials, the Dominion was able to successfully infiltrate and bomb a government-level diplomatic meeting in Antwerp, not to mention how effortlessly one of them impersonated Admiral Leyton with only his open hostility towards Odo suggesting something was wrong. There are also the well known foreign examples of Colonel Lovok and the Martok Changeling. And we could even add Gabe Lorca to the mix whose true identity was only found out after he had already succeeded in returning to his home universe.

If there's one thing consistent about how the Federation is portrayed is how susceptible it is to being infiltrated by its enemies. You might say that the Enterprise successfully exposed Darvin, but the changeling who bombed Antwerp was successful, as was Selok who was unknowingly ferried back to the Tal Shiar by the Enterprise itself. The Krajensky changeling's mission to get the Federation and the Tzenkethi into a war was only barely averted. I'd definitely say that Starfleet and more specifically Starfleet Intelligence is woefully inadequate against these kinds of threats, given that most of these plots were only exposed when the Enterprise was in the right place at the right time. Who knows how many more of these attempts were only thwarted by Section 31?
It would be nice for organisations like S31 to not be needed in Star Trek or the real world but it's existence in the show adds to the realism while acknowledging that there is a price to be paid for freedom, it is never free, even though most civilians will never be aware of this.

Something Babylon 5 showed very well indeed.
 
It would be nice for organisations like S31 to not be needed in Star Trek or the real world but it's existence in the show adds to the realism while acknowledging that there is a price to be paid for freedom, it is never free, even though most civilians will never be aware of this.

Something Babylon 5 showed very well indeed.
I think this is the danger of Star Trek and its perception. If it is to be a vision of current humanity in the future then that realism is necessary, in my opinion. But, the optimism piece of Star Trek also allows for the opportunity for the moral/good guys to actually triumphant, something that doesn't always happen in real life.

But, if people just want a fun, action adventure romp, with a tinge of optimism but not realism, then I can see why S31 annoys. I just don't think that's what Star Trek was ever just that.
 
Reminds me of when we went to see Batman (1989). My parents didn't like that it was so dark and wasn't like the Adam West version. It was, to quote them, "dark and somber". I wonder if it was more they didn't like it or they didn't like that I saw it, because they thought it would be something else.

Same deal here with DS9 and DSC. I'll even say ENT S3.
 
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The Section 31 of DS9 was an illegal conspiracy between a group of officers. The Section 31 of Disco is an officially sanctioned SS, complete with military oversight and a fleet of ships.
Oh please - as ST: DS9's S7 episodes "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" and "Extreme Measures" showed: Starfleet Command was FULLY AWARE of, and ENDORSING Section 31's actions and working in conjunction with them on a variety of secret operations.
 
I still think Section 31 is a necessary evil and the Federation would've fallen apart without it hundreds of years ago.

It didn't. Star Trek was already enjoying the greatest success in terms of wide popularity that it ever would, before this lame concept was invented for one of the lesser-watched later versions.

Since there is no such thing as the Federation and never will be, the standard above is the appropriate one to judge by.
 
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