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do you think TOS should have been remastered?

Again, you spent an awful lot of time missing the point..insert auible groan.

They did not want Enterprise level FX in TOS-R. The design aesthetic--which btw compares very well with EdenFX, even though the model is somewhat more elaborate--is toned down to better fit into the rest of the episodes..which is what I was referring to in my earlier post. Your post basically makes the argument for my position.

RAMA

First of all clarify your terms.
"They did not want Enterprise level FX in TOS-R"
Who are they?
-insert audible sigh.

I'll assume you mean CBS?
So you think that CBS wanted cheap low level CGI for "artistic" reasons?
To" better fit the rest of the episodes" ?
-insert HUGE belly laugh.

Seriously?

How does LESS REAL LOOKING better serve the TOS aesthetic?
Okay let me demonstrate once again so that you might actually understand this time.

real%20flast%20cartoon.jpg

-insert audible giggle.

Or even more simply put.
Star Trek.......LOOK REAL
BAD CG..........LOOK NOT REAL
-insert audible grunt.

Your confusingly worded point...
The only problem here is these productions would have created top level CGI when you already suggest the CGI which was designed to meld with the old footage is glaring when integrated. Can't have it both ways.

MY POINT is, if the CG is of good quality, it would NOT be "glaring" as you put it.
It would blend seamlessly. CBSD used poor CGI, which is extremely "glaring" as you put it.


Would models be better? Of course. I even made a video to prove the point.
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LLAP
:)Spockboy
 
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The video is only 480p and the remastered version STILL looks a LOT better.

RAMA
If you bothered to check the date on the video you'd see it was 9 years ago. Trek Remastered had not yet been released in HD.

:)Spockboy
 
The video is only 480p and the remastered version STILL looks a LOT better.

Which is your opinion. But don't tell the rest of us we "don't understand" when we disagree with your assessment. I understand that the vast majority of spaceship shots in TOS-R look poor to my eye. On my 50" 4K TV? I'd rather watch the original effects.

I'm not against new effects (I'd love for a real effects house to give it another shot), I'm against poor effects work replacing the original material.
 
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And THAT said, I think the single most unnecessary, dumb, offensive alteration of all was THIS bullshit:

1CjhidX.png

I agree here. This was the only thing about TOS-R that truly aggravated me. It made something cool and futuristic look mundane.
 
I'm glad the remasters were done; it gives the series a breath of fresh air. Although, I don't think the new cg effects helps or hurts the first 2 seasons of Star Trek, I do think the effects has help the viewing of the 3rd season more watchable for me. I actually appreciate THE CAGE even more, which is included in the season 3 set.
 
I don't understand why this misconception keeps getting thrown around.
It's well known that it was a full-size studio model, eleven feet long. It's been at the Smithsonian for years.

Kor

*faceplam* yes, I know. But it's still just wood and wires, getting bent out of shape over it is just the sort of petty thing people make fun of Trekkies for.

These little details weren't even visible in the era the show aired, it was probably 20 years later before people even realised some of these things. What does it matter now?

Even if the CGI wasn't the best for the project, it's still infinitely better than the shoddy tripe we had from the 60's that leaves nightmares when viewed now.
 
I'm ok with remastering, provided the original remains available.

Here's the thing, and there's no getting around it:

TOS was intended to be viewed on a low-definition broadcast TV. In going back to the negatives, they wound up with beautiful prints. I'm a lifelong, Barely First Fandom TOS fan. I've been studying every frame -- in detail -- since at least 1976.

It's never looked as beautiful as in HD. There are things I learned about the props and sets that were not visible until that time.

Now, I want to preface what I'm going to say about the visual effects:

They were the best possible for the time period. People look at them now and go, "How cheap can you get?" without realizing that they were expensive -- and the best you'd ever see on lo-def broadcast TV.

They were never shot with HD in mind. But where live-action footage looks amazing the accompanying original effects simply don't. They look sadly dated -- as is the case with all SF beyond a certain point.

Forbidden Planet is beautiful in HD -- but the effects look dated.

I've even been told that the effects in Star Wars (the 1977 original) now look dated.

I suppose they do. We've come a long way. In fact, I've discovered the hard way that we've reached a really weird place with modern visual effects.

I made the mistake of screening Captain America: The Winter Soldier in 3D. What I discovered was that the CGI was so good that in 3D, the helicarriers looked like a highly-detailed models. Worse, because of how it was shot, I could get no conception of their scale. They just looked like models.

Now here's the really good part from a fan perspective:

Most films are now shot with digital cameras. These cameras have a very high upper resolution, but it's still fixed. In 20 years, the 2009 Star Trek is not only going to look dated, it's going to look pixelated.

Not so TOS. it was shot on film. With the next TV resolution standard, they can go back and make a Really Really Really HD print.

It's going to look even more beautiful than 1080p. It will not be pixelated, because you can blow up flim quite a lot without losing definition.

But the Remastered effects -- like the originals -- are going to look dated.

Here's why the re-creation of effects has a place, IMNSHO:

I was standing outside a screening of Star Trek 2009 waiting to enter the theater. The prior showing's crowd was leaving. A little boy was waxing enthusiastic about the film and how he now wanted to go watch TOS.

Yay! A convert!

The thing is that kids that age have no regard for 1960s special effects. The VFX that dominated the 2009 and later films are not in TOS. At all.

Then I heard the father give his son the best advice possible:

"Well that's great, son -- I love the original Star Trek. But it was made a while ago, so it won't be as fancy as this."

Good call. Set the kid's expectations so when he says, "Dad, why does the Enterprise look so fake?" the father can say, "Well, son, they made this show about 20 years before I was born. It wasn't possible to do what they can now. This was actually pretty cool stuff at the time. And if you can look past it, they tell some good stories."

And all that said ... I'm not against occasionally remastering the original and recreating the effects for a higher definition. It's true that some of the CGI in Remastered is jarring if you've spent a lifetime watching the original. They didn't go too crazy with it, and I'm ok with what they did.

I think next time around (when the video standard is 256K not a measely 4K) they'll do even better.

You unfortunately can't get new, young fans interested in 1960s low-def visual effects. You just can't. I tried for years with my kids and had very limited success. They've literally never seen effects so primitive. It jarringly takes them out of the moment.

For them, you have to get to The Trilogy (ST2-4) before it becomes "real" for them. They will sit and watch The Trilogy with me.

They will watch "City," as will any sane fan of visual drama. Dated effects or not, it's become a Classic. In another fifty years, or a hundred, if they look back fondly on TOS, it will be "City" they remember.

"City" has become a Classic. It's up there with Casablanca. And no, I'm not kidding.

"City" is the Star Trek episode that has survived my granparents' generation, my parents' generation, my generation, and my children's generation.

It will survive until Humanity can no longer empathize with every character -- and that will be never.

"The City On the Edge Of Forever" has become a true Classic.

But my kids' reaction to almost any effects-heavy episode is to be jarred out of the moment.

That's another reason "City" is a Classic. It's a timeless period piece. It needs no effects to tell the story, and what were used now appear charming. It adds to the timelessness of the story.

I'm ok with remastering both the negatives and recreating the visual effects -- provided you keep it simple. "The Doomsday Machine" should never become too complex.

I will admit here and now that I liked what they did with "The Doomsday Machine." Their decision not to add the whine of the planet-killer's tractor beam is odd. Daniels clearly shot the scene with everyone reacting to it.

However, I liked the effects. The asteroid fields were appropriate. As Barely First Fandom, I can recall many geek session about how the planet-killer somehow left no debris. After carving up planets.

Gorrammed right, there should be asteroids -- and a frak-ton of them.

I'm also on-board with the Enterprise, Constellation, and shuttlecraft being a bit more mobile. It was not over-done, IMNSHO. It was an outright battle, and the more mobile craft only underscored it.

Oh, also, the shuttlecraft being retconned to not-Galileo resolved a longstanding fannish dispute:

The first Galileo was lost at Taurus II. Due to stock footage, every shuttle seen after is still the Galileo. The next time we see her exterior is in "The Way to Eden." She's obviously a replacement, so why wasn't it labelled II before?

With a very slight retcon, it both cleared up the problem and made die-hard purists furious.

Well, I don't mind that retcon. It's not harmful to the story in any way. I doubt the current generation can appreciate how frequently we argued about that one little item.

In any case, TOS isn't as "fancy" as the 2009 and later films. The non-CGI version takes the modern viewer out of the moment.

That's a problem for new, young fans. It just is. I wish it weren't, but it is.

If we want to keep TOS alive and vital for new fans, we're probably going to have re-created visual effects.

Again, I'm fine with it -- provided the original is also available.

Dakota Smith
 
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What frame are you talking about? I went looking and saw this, but it's more like the saucer is overlaying the neck:
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x00hd/thecagehd0035.jpg

That's it, yep. That's what I meant, misspoke. Kind of sucks that the first thing future generations will see when they view TOS for the first time is a careless special FX mistake. It's no way to introduce the Trek universe. If I were running things I would have fixed the shot and issued replacement discs.

It bothers me that problems like that never got caught by anyone up the chain and it went all the way to print.

Thank you Spockboy for the nice a/b comparison between Eden FX and CBS Digital. I can't say CBS Digital's work is outright bad. It just feels rushed and a little careless. The inaccuracies are perhaps felt more than identified in the context of the episode. The flat and washed-out look of the bussards in particular bother me.

As for the Scotty phaser scene, some people are purists beyond anything I can imagine. It's a phaser. It should be shooting a beam. If the producers thought it shouldn't, they were warping canon for that one episode (sort of like the photon/phaser confusion in the early episodes).
 
Well... I think that was the first time they ever showed the phaser being used for that "cutting" function. So to me, it makes sense that the beam could look different than usual, or that there could be no visible beam whatsover (just like with a real laser).

Kor
 
And THAT said, I think the single most unnecessary, dumb, offensive alteration of all was THIS bullshit:

1CjhidX.png

I'm seeing this page from behind a workplace firewall that blocks the image. I've got to ask out of curiosity, what shot are you referring to? I can see the Trekcore screencaps, if you could cite one for me.
 
I'm seeing this page from behind a workplace firewall that blocks the image. I've got to ask out of curiosity, what shot are you referring to? I can see the Trekcore screencaps, if you could cite one for me.

From "The Naked Time". Where Scott is cutting through the bulkhead with a phaser. In the original, there is no beam.
 
Call me heretical, but I'm fine with the beam. It's an obviously-implied use of the weapon. They clearly went to great lengths to closely align Scotty's aim with the burning wall.

Watching it as a child, I always wondered why there was no beam.

Geeking about it with others, it always looked like they intended to put in a beam. We figured it was budget, or maybe the effects house just couldn't come up with anything that looked good.

But I'm tellin' ya, for about 50 years, I've been of the opinion that they wanted to put a beam in the shot. The framing and alignment just scream it.

It's what perplexes me about "The Doomsday Machine." They go to the trouble to put a beam into a shot it looked like was originally intended. Yet in "Machine," they don't add the whine of the planet-killer's tractor beam.

It was in the script. Marc Daniels has a lot of shots with people reacting to it, crewmen holding their ears ... it's always looked stupid. Clearly they intended to have a sound effect that probably got higher in pitch the loinger it was sustained.

Clearly.

So why didn't they put it in? I would have. It was obviously intended, and its exclusion leaves you wondering why the frak these people are holding their ears? Why is Spock wincing? Why is Decker starting to chew the scenery again?

In short: WTF?

Well, we get around to the 256K version, they'll probably take out the beam and put in the whine. That'll keep us arguing for another 20 years, easily.

And then they'll have the immersive version, where you actually feel like you're sitting on top of a tripod watching actors on a soundstage ...
 
You reminded me, they removed Mr. Spock's line from the end of Trouble with Tribbles! That made me angry, it's one of the best damn jokes in the episode, mostly because it isn't really a joke but Nimoy delivers it perfectly. WTF! That kind of revisionism makes me mad. And to what purpose?
 
From "The Naked Time". Where Scott is cutting through the bulkhead with a phaser. In the original, there is no beam.

Thank you. My guess for this "worst" scene was the CGI hangar deck, especially in "The Galileo Seven" when there's a slight match-up problem regarding a second shuttle:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x16hd/thegalileosevenhd022.jpg

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x16hd/thegalileosevenhd027.jpg

It's pretty obvious that the shots were assigned to two different artists, and they weren't on speaking terms.
 
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Thank you. My guess for this "worst" scene was the CGI hangar deck, especially in "The Galileo Seven" when there's a slight match-up problem regarding a second shuttle:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x16hd/thegalileosevenhd022.jpg

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x16hd/thegalileosevenhd027.jpg

It's pretty obvious that the shots were assigned to two different artists, and they weren't on speaking terms.

You didn't know the Columbus had a cloaking device? :shifty:
 
First of all clarify your terms.
"They did not want Enterprise level FX in TOS-R"
Who are they?
-insert audible sigh.

I'll assume you mean CBS?
So you think that CBS wanted cheap low level CGI for "artistic" reasons?
To" better fit the rest of the episodes" ?
-insert HUGE belly laugh.

Seriously?

How does LESS REAL LOOKING better serve the TOS aesthetic?
Okay let me demonstrate once again so that you might actually understand this time.

real%20flast%20cartoon.jpg

-insert audible giggle.

Or even more simply put.
Star Trek.......LOOK REAL
BAD CG..........LOOK NOT REAL
-insert audible grunt.

Your confusingly worded point...
The only problem here is these productions would have created top level CGI when you already suggest the CGI which was designed to meld with the old footage is glaring when integrated. Can't have it both ways.

MY POINT is, if the CG is of good quality, it would NOT be "glaring" as you put it.
It would blend seamlessly. CBSD used poor CGI, which is extremely "glaring" as you put it.


Would models be better? Of course. I even made a video to prove the point.
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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.


LLAP
:)Spockboy
I re-read my post, no there's nothing remotely confusing about the quote from me you post. Probably not me then. I'd have corrected it if it was, but there's no need.

Yes, I was referring to CBs and the Okudas.

So I'm gathering you're not getting the gist yet......The claim by some "purists" here is that the CGI Fx are too crisp, to high quality for the interior set shots of even the remastered version of the show. They are said to be glaring and take one out of those versions. Yet, on the other hand we are told they are low quality CGI and do not look good as the old models. In other words, nostalgia driven people are trying desperately to make the remastering fit into their version of reality instead of reality itself because some dared to upgrade for modern HD.

CGI that was not designed from the outset to be in a somewhat 60s style (softer, less detailed than say, Enterprise from around that time) as the remastering was would be even more obvious. You are somehow arguing that it WOULD not be and are contradicting the other "purists".

Yes, I've seen the CGI on a large 4K TV...the CGI is much better than the original models which were shot and printed with analog printers, and with lighting we would not use today with tons of visible matte lines, etc. The model work was primitive even compared to 70s tv shows, much less the CGI of the remastering with the benefit of 40 years of improvement. I have yet to watch more than a few minutes of ANY of the episodes with old FX, why would I?

So yeah, this:
thecagehd0040.jpg

Ia better than this:
thecagehd0032.jpg

This..
new-540x304-1.jpg

Than this:
old-405x304-1.jpg

This..(and wow is this bad)
doomsdaymachine_037.jpg

This over..
Fesarius_Enterprise_zpsopgai4cu.jpg

This (oh no, the matte lines :-()
fesariusoldvv.jpg

Good:
thedoomsdaymachinehd1547_zpsbgrtooaf.jpg

Not so good..
thedoomsdaymachinehd1546_zpssj83ngwj.jpg

Well..
USS_Constellation_remastered_zpsz6jrcvln.jpg

You get the picture(it seems silly and a hopelessly uneven match even comparing these).
tos-uss-constellation_zps8urfskbi.jpg

I could go on endlessly, I guess the conclusion is pretty easy to reach..but I'm not hoping for 20/20 vision.

As for the potential of model work, well certainly models would have worked fine, but it's not even remotely a logistical or economical possibility to recreate the shots from TOS in HD with physical models or practical FX in a speedy amount of time. Why is this even a question??

RAMA
 
Even if the CGI wasn't the best for the project, it's still infinitely better than the shoddy tripe we had from the 60's that leaves nightmares when viewed now.

The problem is not that it's CGI. It's that it's baaaaaaaad CGI.

Every shot of the remastered Enterprise should look as good as the CGI Defiant from "In A Mirror, Darkly." But the shots of the Enterprise don't come close to that quality.

You get what you pay for, and it was done on the cheap. And that's how it looks.... cheap.
 
You reminded me, they removed Mr. Spock's line from the end of Trouble with Tribbles! That made me angry, it's one of the best damn jokes in the episode, mostly because it isn't really a joke but Nimoy delivers it perfectly. WTF! That kind of revisionism makes me mad. And to what purpose?
Are you talking about Trouble With Tribbles or maybe mixing it up with Trials and Tribble-ations, where they stopped Spock from speaking his line in the footage taken from Mirror, Mirror?
 
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Restored yes, remastered no.

But, as Tosk here said well:



And THAT said, I think the single most unnecessary, dumb, offensive alteration of all was THIS bullshit:

1CjhidX.png
It always seemed to me that the original production meant to animate the beam into these shots later, and they just ran out of time or money and it remained unfinished. It may have been the only phaser footage where we don't see the beam, which was unusual in and of itself.

Of course, why Scotty didn't just blast through the actual door instead of making this time-consuming precision cut in the wall...
 
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