What frame are you talking about? I went looking and saw this, but it's more like the saucer is overlaying the neck:
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x00hd/thecagehd0035.jpg
do you think TOS should have been remastered?
- Thread starter Clym
- Start date
What frame are you talking about? I went looking and saw this, but it's more like the saucer is overlaying the neck:
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x00hd/thecagehd0035.jpg
I hate what they did with that shot. That flyby of the ship is one of the most interesting in all the series and yet it looks horrible in TOS-R.
I blame George Lucas.
(For pretty much everything.)
(For pretty much everything.)
I actually found the CGI to have been pretty good on TOS-R. It was a lot better than the garbage that was done for Enterprise, and I remember that when I first saw The Naked Time, the first remastered episode I caught, I was a little nervous, but then I couldn't believe at just how good the CGI was. I thought that it wasn't even CGI, but shots of the models that had been done 40 years earlier, but then locked in a vault and not even touched for 40 years (and this was watching the episode on a DVD-R that had been recorded off of analog cable, and the only problem that I could find was the compositing artifacts present in the image due to the analog RF cable).
I was just watching The Trouble With Tribbles the other day, and the 1960's effects, even after being scanned in 1080p are just not holding up on modern TV's (I wonder if in the 60's, to save costs, if the compositing was bumped down from 35mm and done on 16 mm and then bumped up to 35mm for incorporation into the final episode?), and in a few cases the details are barely present. I switched over to the 2006 effects, and they looked 500 times better in HD. Plus, it is doubtful that many of the individual SFX parts exist anymore, as they were probably thrown out once the final composite was done in the 60's. One issue with the 60's effects was all the dust and debris that was photographed on the optical printer, or the see-through saucer/nacelle/pylons, you name it from the green screen over wash.
I was just watching The Trouble With Tribbles the other day, and the 1960's effects, even after being scanned in 1080p are just not holding up on modern TV's (I wonder if in the 60's, to save costs, if the compositing was bumped down from 35mm and done on 16 mm and then bumped up to 35mm for incorporation into the final episode?), and in a few cases the details are barely present. I switched over to the 2006 effects, and they looked 500 times better in HD. Plus, it is doubtful that many of the individual SFX parts exist anymore, as they were probably thrown out once the final composite was done in the 60's. One issue with the 60's effects was all the dust and debris that was photographed on the optical printer, or the see-through saucer/nacelle/pylons, you name it from the green screen over wash.
My reaction seemed like what I read Leonard Nimoy said at the time, he thought it was terrible tampering with it until he saw it and it didn't bother him anymore, BTW if that's wrong I apologize, but that's what I remember.
So seeing it and buying the dvds because they were half price and all I had were VHS before, I do like it, but there are several examples of the old effects being better.
I think the necessary use of stock footage was what I didn't like about the original effects more than the effects themselves, so I did like when it wasn't the same exact shot over and over, and the planets and backgrounds do have more variety now, but other parts really were disappointing, especially the Tholian ships and the battle with the Klingon in Elan of Troyus. They were much better in the original.
The M-5 is more dynamic but compared to what they could have done it is still disappointing.
The only episode I though really improved from something being there was Errand of Mercy when there is a ship in the beginning and other ships show up to chase off Enterprise. But that was a great episode and would have stayed great without that.
Balance of Terror isn't improved, but at least they didn't screw it up, too much.
Some parts of Doomsday Machine are cool where they added asteroids and I thought the Constellation looked better but then the ending explosion is a different kind of weird. I thought the old one looked too much like smoke, the new one is too much like water.
So seeing it and buying the dvds because they were half price and all I had were VHS before, I do like it, but there are several examples of the old effects being better.
I think the necessary use of stock footage was what I didn't like about the original effects more than the effects themselves, so I did like when it wasn't the same exact shot over and over, and the planets and backgrounds do have more variety now, but other parts really were disappointing, especially the Tholian ships and the battle with the Klingon in Elan of Troyus. They were much better in the original.
The M-5 is more dynamic but compared to what they could have done it is still disappointing.
The only episode I though really improved from something being there was Errand of Mercy when there is a ship in the beginning and other ships show up to chase off Enterprise. But that was a great episode and would have stayed great without that.
Balance of Terror isn't improved, but at least they didn't screw it up, too much.
Some parts of Doomsday Machine are cool where they added asteroids and I thought the Constellation looked better but then the ending explosion is a different kind of weird. I thought the old one looked too much like smoke, the new one is too much like water.
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I thought the CGI for Enterprise was very, very good. Especially for a weekly show starting in 2001. The TOS CGI? I'm not against the idea, but for the most part, was very miss. Obviously, it was a project without a lot of time or money put into it.
If I recall correctly Michael Okuda stated in an interview on Mission Log that he and his wife had advised, repeatedly, to exercise restraint with the new f/x. And Doug Drexler has also had some words of criticism regarding some of the f/x, not only for TOS-R but some TOS based fan productions as well.
I thought the CGI for Enterprise was very, very good. Especially for a weekly show starting in 2001. The TOS CGI? I'm not against the idea, but for the most part, was very miss. Obviously, it was a project without a lot of time or money put into it.
It wasn't bad for 2001-2005 but it was still lower resolution and poorer frame rate than some other shows at the time working on a lower budget.
Dont get me wrong, I like Enterprise and the CGI is good enough for the show, but it wasn't "all out".
It was worse at times in TOS-R, because of the insistence to try and make it look retro, they should have saved up more and tried for modern CGI, or just waited a few years and tried with slightly newer technology.
Since the idea behind the blurays was to have both the original and remastered effects available to everyone, it would have made little difference, having completely up to date CGI for those who wanted the option, and the originals cleaned up for those who didn't.
Selling one set, with one manufacturing cost, to both sets of fans.
If they ever do it again I suggest Doug Drexler oversee the project.
I intend to get the new repackaged BluRay release coming in June, but primarily for seeing the originals in HD. I have seen plenty enough of the new f/x that I have little interest in watching the TOS-R versions.
I intend to get the new repackaged BluRay release coming in June, but primarily for seeing the originals in HD. I have seen plenty enough of the new f/x that I have little interest in watching the TOS-R versions.
I don't understand the idea that the TOS-R effects were deliberately "retro." Things like the Orion ship and the Tholian ship absolutely do not look like something from the sixties. And nothing in the sixties looked like a video game from the 2000s the way TOS-R does.
Kor
Kor
I'd be curious to hear more about not just what people think of the TOS-R effects, but under what conditions they're observing them, because I think there may be potential for that to be a significant factor.
I have a 50" plasma TV. For me, the TOS-R effects work alright. In some cases they may not be necessary, in other cases, especially with things we never saw before, I rather enjoy them. In rare cases ("The Doomsday Machine", "The Ultimate Computer", for instance) I kind of wish they'd gone a bit farther.
What I can say without any doubt is that I was able to interest friends in seeing TOS based on the remastered versions on the Blu ray. I would not have been able to get them to take the show at all seriously using the non-enhanced versions. So, from that perspective, the remastered versions are a win.
I have a 50" plasma TV. For me, the TOS-R effects work alright. In some cases they may not be necessary, in other cases, especially with things we never saw before, I rather enjoy them. In rare cases ("The Doomsday Machine", "The Ultimate Computer", for instance) I kind of wish they'd gone a bit farther.
What I can say without any doubt is that I was able to interest friends in seeing TOS based on the remastered versions on the Blu ray. I would not have been able to get them to take the show at all seriously using the non-enhanced versions. So, from that perspective, the remastered versions are a win.
This old debate...
Should they have been remastered? Yes. No. Maybe. Anyway, they were.
Should they have been remastered? Yes. No. Maybe. Anyway, they were.
Actually with all respect sir, you seem to be one of the people who "never really understands"
"Top level CGI" as you put it, looks PHOTO REAL which is the main problem that most of us have when it comes to CBS Digital's work on Star Trek TOS.
Nobody thinks the JJPrize looks flat and cartoony.
Design issues aside, It genuinely looks like an actual, physical object.
Since TOS is so organic, if you are going to employ CG and not a model then you must ensure that your CG model looks organically REAL for it to be less jarring when you go from FX shot to live action.
Initially, Eden FX put in a bid for the TOS Remastered job, but CBS decided it would be cheaper to go in house.
I'll let you be the judge...
Now that we have covered the flat grey cartoony aspects, let's get into actual incredibly silly mistakes.
I could go on and on.
Again, no disrespect intended but I think you should give the dissatisfied fans more credit. If the CG is accurate and looks real, then we can have our cake and eat it too.
Spockboy
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Restored yes, remastered no.
But, as Tosk here said well:
And THAT said, I think the single most unnecessary, dumb, offensive alteration of all was THIS bullshit:
But, as Tosk here said well:
And THAT said, I think the single most unnecessary, dumb, offensive alteration of all was THIS bullshit:
Rather minor details, given only the most ardent fans (a tiny amount of people) noticed this years into it's shelf life, and that it doesn't affect the actual story in any way.
It's a toy spaceship, made 50 years ago, I worry about the quality of the transfer (video and audio) over things like this, and the TOS-R prints come out very well in those respects.
It's a toy spaceship, made 50 years ago, I worry about the quality of the transfer (video and audio) over things like this, and the TOS-R prints come out very well in those respects.
Again, you spent an awful lot of time missing the point..insert auible groan.
They did not want Enterprise level FX in TOS-R. The design aesthetic--which btw compares very well with EdenFX, even though the model is somewhat more elaborate--is toned down to better fit into the rest of the episodes..which is what I was referring to in my earlier post. Your post basically makes the argument for my position.
RAMA
They did not want Enterprise level FX in TOS-R. The design aesthetic--which btw compares very well with EdenFX, even though the model is somewhat more elaborate--is toned down to better fit into the rest of the episodes..which is what I was referring to in my earlier post. Your post basically makes the argument for my position.
RAMA
Actually with all respect sir, you seem to be one of the people who "never really understands"
"Top level CGI" as you put it, looks PHOTO REAL which is the main problem that most of us have when it comes to CBS Digital's work on Star Trek TOS.
Nobody thinks the JJPrize looks flat and cartoony.
Design issues aside, It genuinely looks like an actual, physical object.
Since TOS is so organic, if you are going to employ CG and not a model then you must ensure that your CG model looks organically REAL for it to be less jarring when you go from Enterprise shot, to real life.
Here is the problem. Initially, Eden FX put in a bid for the TOS Remastered job, but CBS decided it would be cheaper to go in house.
I'll let you be the judge...
Now that we have covered the flat grey cartoony aspects, let's get into actual incredibly silly mistakes.
Again, no disrespect intended but I think you should give the dissatisfied fans more credit. If the CG is accurate and looks real, then we can have our cake and eat it too.
I like the new one better.Restored yes, remastered no.
But, as Tosk here said well:
And THAT said, I think the single most unnecessary, dumb, offensive alteration of all was THIS bullshit:
"The most ardent fans are "a tiny amount of people"
LOL. Go into Google right now and type USS Enterprise. There are literally thousands and thousands of websites, blueprints, schematics, CGI renderings, model forums, videos completely devoted to this very subject.
"only the most ardent fans (a tiny amount of people) noticed this years into it's shelf life"
Not true. I was discussing this on many forums episode by episode when they were originally broadcast, complete with video comparisons.
"It's a toy spaceship"
Actually It's an 11 foot work of art that is so respected by the United States that it is currently being restored by a team of experts at great expense as if it were a national treasure.
"I worry about the quality of the transfer (video and audio)"
Yes, I actually work in the industry myself. Nobody is debating the aspects of the transfer, although I personally think there were many effects shots still contained spots and scratches that were not removed. If a company like Lowry Digital Images handled the job it would have been pristine.
Spockboy
Another subject that nobody cares about 
Spockboy's 'comparitive' post above captures all of my comments, so I won't waste your time regurgitating them. All I'll say is that when I watch TOS on Blu Ray, I almost always watch it with the original effects. They may appear inferior, but at least they aren't "cartooney." I can watch TAS if I want to see cartooney effects.
Spockboy's 'comparitive' post above captures all of my comments, so I won't waste your time regurgitating them. All I'll say is that when I watch TOS on Blu Ray, I almost always watch it with the original effects. They may appear inferior, but at least they aren't "cartooney." I can watch TAS if I want to see cartooney effects.
The video is only 480p and the remastered version STILL looks a LOT better.
RAMA
RAMA
"The most ardent fans are "a tiny amount of people"
LOL. Go into Google right now and type USS Enterprise. There are literally thousands and thousands of websites, blueprints, schematics, CGI renderings, model forums, videos completely devoted to this very subject.
"only the most ardent fans (a tiny amount of people) noticed this years into it's shelf life"
Not true. I was discussing this on many forums episode by episode when they were originally broadcast, complete with video comparisons.
"It's a toy spaceship"
Actually It's an 11 foot work of art that is so respected by the United States that it is currently being restored by a team of experts at great expense as if it were a national treasure.
"I worry about the quality of the transfer (video and audio)"
Yes, I actually work in the industry myself. Nobody is debating the aspects of the transfer, although I personally think there were many effects shots still contained spots and scratches that were not removed. If a company like Lowry Digital Images handled the job it would have been pristine.
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