Divisions Starfleet should have

[CoveTom]

When it comes to food, there are definitely several clear examples showing that they did not have food replicator technology. Or at least, if they did, it was limited to manufacturing those colored food cubes.

In "Charlie X," Kirk talks to the chef, who speaks of being from the galley, and also talks about putting food in the ovens. And in TUC, we actually see the galley and the meals being cooked. It seems unlikely they would be doing all that cooking on board the ship, and wasting all the space and resources for a galley, if they had food replicators available.

 

[Arpy]

Starfleet IS the standing military of the United Federation of Planets, regardless of it's other duties and activities, and regardless if members maintain their own defense forces or civil defense initiatives/militias.

Its primary purpose is not defense. In the future war is more or less a relic of the past. Human beings and many aliens set aside violence to live peaceful and prosperous lives of exploration and understanding. Starfleet (which one can imagine growing out of NASA, not the Space Force/MACOs) is a scientific and exploratory organization, not a military one – explicitly. Defense is secondary, a burden. When you go out to the bar to meet new people, you're there to have a good time. If you have to deal with bad behavior, did you go out there to be security guard? Are you one? Or did you simply exercise other parts of yourself? This is how I see Starfleet. Indeed, this is how I see our actual future, if we're so lucky to keep it.

The problem with Star Trek is that it's a TV show that needs high drama every week, and usually drama that appeals to boys. When ratings began to drop, VOY brought in sex (Seven), and DS9 brought in violence (the Dominion War...the Klingon War...the Tzenkethi War...the ever present specter of past and future Cardassian Wars). That's all swell and all if you don't take it too seriously. Like the number of scantily clad women Kirk ran into in TOS, how the starboard power coupling seemed to blow every week on TNG, or the number of times O'Brien was really put through the wringer on DS9.

In the real world, space is mostly empty and lifeless, and aliens are more likely to be a million years ahead of us (Organians, Vorlons, 2001) or behind us (proto-Klingonoids). We'll likely have few interactions with such beings and the burden will be on us to live with ourselves. This being the case, I think families on starships makes sense, and frankly I pity the idea of militaries in space at all. It's a terrestrial concept I hope dwindles with each passing decade, century.

 

[Nerys Myk]

i wouldn't take "manufacture" to be a synonym with "replicate" in that sense (we can manufacture gemstones now but it definitely isn't). in any case, possibly at least a partial bluff thingy, given that other crystals and minerals are known to be needed, and not manufactured, given there are multiple instants of miners and mining.

I'm pretty sure the implication was those things were of little value because they were made with ease. No indication of a bluff, just one of things losing value and desirability. Most of what is mined in Trek are fictional so not indicative of the value of things from the 20th/21st Centuries. All showing "it's the future!"

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Starfleet does have ground combats, those guys in the black jumpsuits we see on DS9 in Nor the Battle to the Strong and The Siege of AR-558.

Agreed, though I go back and forth on whether they were wartime-only combat arms personnel or "Starfleet Special Forces" (specifically something similar to USCG Port Security

Didn't they get their arses kicked pretty badly?

Yes, but the episode provides a reason for that:

VARGAS: Take it easy? I would love to take it easy. Get me out of this vole hole and I promise you for the rest of my life all I'll do is take it easy! According to Starfleet regulations we're suppose to be rotated off the front lines after ninety days. Ninety days! We've been stuck on this rock for five months, Captain. Take it easy.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Agreed, though I go back and forth on whether they were wartime-only combat arms personnel or "Starfleet Special Forces" (specifically something similar to USCG Port Security

To be practical, there has to be a standing core force that practices, trains, and is continually replenished, that can be expanded in wartime if necessary. Without that, a newly created force would have no experience to bestow to its recruits.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

To be practical, there has to be a standing core force that practices, trains, and is continually replenished, that can be expanded in wartime if necessary. Without that, a newly created force would have no experience to bestow to its recruits.

We saw how painful it was to conscript troops and train them from scratch each time a conflict rears it's head based in human history.

The Professional Soldier has shown how much more effective they can be compared to the average conscript.

If we need "Conscript Level Soldiers", we should just make Cheap Disposable Battle Droids similar to the B1 Battle Droids from Star Wars that are easily end user program-able, train-able, & customize-able to mimic real life soldiers, but are dirt cheap to mass produce and deploy.

Where the loss of one of these mass produced Battle Droids wouldn't really bother anybody since they're so damn cheap to mass produce based off CotS (Consumer off the Shelf) parts, while we have the expensive professional Soldier trained to guide all his Battle Droids into the field on top of him being in the field as well to lead his mini Squad into combat.

So imagine if every Trained Organic Soldier had 12x-15x Battle Droids accompany him into Battle.

Then you multiply that by each regular Trained Organic Soldier in a Professional Army.

You improve the # of Boots on the Ground by 12x-15x and can cover far more terrain.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

We saw how painful it was to conscript troops and train them from scratch each time a conflict rears it's head based in human history.

The Professional Soldier has shown how much more effective they can be compared to the average conscript.

If we need "Conscript Level Soldiers", we should just make Cheap Disposable Battle Droids similar to the B1 Battle Droids from Star Wars that are easily end user programmable, train-able, & customize-able to mimic real life soldiers, but are dirt cheap to mass produce and deploy.

Where the loss of one of these mass produced Battle Droids wouldn't really bother anybody since they're so damn cheap to mass produce based off CotS (Consumer off the Shelf) parts, while we have the expensive professional Soldier trained to guide all his Battle Droids into the field on top of him being in the field as well to lead his mini Squad into combat.

So imagine if every Trained Organic Soldier had 12x-15x Battle Droids accompany him into Battle.

Then you multiply that by each regular Trained Organic Soldier in a Professional Army.

You improve the # of Boots on the Ground by 12x-15x and can cover far more terrain.

I never mentioned conscripts. This is the Federation utopia. There's no draft, not even in wartime. I don't recall any canonical evidence to the contrary.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I never mentioned conscripts. This is the Federation utopia. There's no draft, not even in wartime.

Well then, if we need to make up for #'s, we have a solution.

Conscription would have to be a dead last solution when the UFP is in a dire situation and on the verge of destruction & needs man-power.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Well then, if we need to make up for #'s, we have a solution.

Conscription would have to be a dead last solution when the UFP is in a dire situation and on the verge of destruction & needs man-power.

Besides the reserve activation clause mentioned in TMP, which isn't really drafting, despite McCoy's hyperbolic histrionics, the only citation Memory Alpha has for Federation conscription is Starfleet regulation 13982, mentioned in DISCO "Choose Your Pain" to provide the authority to bring Michael Burnham aboard [link]. In all of canon, it's been applied to a single individual, once. That doesn't support any widescale application of the concept of conscription.

In TNG "The Survivors," colonists volunteered to defend their colony against the alien attack. I suggest that's more indicative of how Federation citizens would deal with existential threats, when the possibility exists that mobilization is practical. This is, again, after all a utopia. Humans don't use money to keep their economy going (that's canonical). People, humans at least, act voluntarily for the greater good.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

To be practical, there has to be a standing core force that practices, trains, and is continually replenished, that can be expanded in wartime if necessary. Without that, a newly created force would have no experience to bestow to its recruits.

Yes, which is why I mentioned that a "training cadre" (made up of personnel down to at least company command team rank, maybe platoon leadership) are part of Starfleet during normal operations in addition to the various "enhanced security teams" and act as advisors/coordinators for the departments that comprise the "Starfleet Security Community" and potentially other commanders and even civilian bureaucrats, when conducting short-notice/short-term operations.

However, the bulk of any expeditionary force would IMO be seconded/transferred from military units of member planets and affiliates under something like the National Guard system.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Humans don't use money to keep their economy going (that's canonical).

That aspect has been contradicted many times as well.

So, while money might not be the driving force for most people, there are other ways of dealing with the Economy.

People, humans at least, act voluntarily in the greater self interest.

Depends on the people, I've seen many people who would run at the sight of a fight and wouldn't hesitate to abandon their country in the countries time of need.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Besides the reserve activation clause mentioned in TMP, which isn't really drafting, despite McCoy's hyperbolic histrionics, the only citation Memory Alpha has for Federation conscription is Starfleet regulation 13982, mentioned in DISCO "Choose Your Pain" to provide the authority to bring Michael Burnham aboard [link].

Given that Michael Burnham was a (former) Starfleet officer, I imagine that Regulation 13982 is either the same "reserve action clause" or at least within the same title/section as it.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

That aspect has been contradicted many times as well.

No, it hasn't. The Federation has money, Earth does not.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Given that Michael Burnham was a (former) Starfleet officer, I imagine that Regulation 13982 is either the same "reserve action clause" or at least within the same title/section as it.

Perhaps, and I'm going to have to leave that there, because I can't go back and watch that episode in the near future.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

No, it hasn't. The Federation has money, Earth does not.

I'm not going to get into a argument with you on that, that's a argument for another time & thread.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Perhaps, and I'm going to have to leave that there, because I can't go back and watch that episode in the near future.

Rewatching it wouldn't help IMO.

My point is that both scenarios are likely covered under something like a Title/Section on "Ways That Prior Service or Civilian Persons May Be Inducted into Starfleet Service".

For that matter, the regulation that Sisko and Nog discuss about the latter joining Starfleet could potentially be part of the same law.

 

[evilchumlee]

Starfleet does have ground combats, those guys in the black jumpsuits we see on DS9 in Nor the Battle to the Strong and The Siege of AR-558.

Yes*

But are those "ground combat troops" a corps of dedicated ground combat troops, are they Starfleet personnel with other jobs who put on a somewhat protective suit to go into battle?

O'Brian canonically saw action on the ground. Was he dedicated infantry? Or was a he a Starfleet non-com who had to go into a ground battle?

Using the logic here, Starfleet has dedicated Special Forces, because we saw Picard, Worf, and Crusher wear black outfits and do spec ops stuff.

 

[1001001]

I'm not going to get into a argument with you on that, that's a argument for another time & thread.

Or never....

 

[evilchumlee]

I really like the idea of riffing off the idea of the "Deep Space Exploratory Corps" to have the different divisions of Starfleet essentially run a fleet/assets, the only one not having a specific fleet would be the Command division because they all report to it. There may be some in sub-divisions as well.

I see it as like... (actual names mostly just placeholders/descriptors)

Operations Division:
*Operations - Utility Fleet (The Lower Decks organization.)

*Engineering - Operational Support Services (more geared towards Starbases, docks, etc. but probably some vessels geared towards engineering projects. I feel like DS9 may have been under this organization.)

*Security - "Coast Guard" (basically law enforcement - patrol vessels)

Science -
*General Science - Deep Space Exploratory Corps. (which means that the Enterprise-D is under the Science Division, which makes sense...)

*Medical - Hospital Fleet (probably smallish, but there. Mostly reserved for large-scale, planetary medical crises)

*Other potential departments, Intelligence, Marines, etc. may have some sort of fleet assets but probably not on a large scale.

I also like the idea that is... at least somewhat supported by canon that the divisions have a sort of "special forces" or otherwise just some sort of elite or highly specialized force associated with them.

Engineering - Starfleet Corps of Engineers (I always saw this as a more combat-oriented subdivision of Engineering)

Science - Applied Sciences Division (there's not much in canon beyond the name, but I like to headcanon it as being like a "weaponized science" division, or something more akin to DARPA)

Medical - Division 14

Security - Starfleet Tactical / Advanced Tactical Operations (if there AREN'T separate "Marines", I think this would be the "combat troops" division, otherwise they may might be closer to like a SWAT team.)

Not sure what Operations proper would be up to in this regard. Ops seems to be in general more logistical in nature, so like, maybe they have some sort of more combat-or-otherwise hazardous situation logistical force?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

*Operations - Utility Fleet (The Lower Decks organization.)

Only the "yellow stripe" Cali's like the Cerritos, the "red stripe" and "blue stripe" Cali's have different functions, possibly Diplomacy in the former case.

Not sure what Operations proper would be up to in this regard. Ops seems to be in general more logistical in nature, so like, maybe they have some sort of more combat-or-otherwise hazardous situation logistical force?

Given that Communications seems to the one of the main functions of Operations Officers distinct from from Engineering or Tactical Officers, my guess would be signals intelligence* as a specialist logistics officers would be a key part of many special forces units.

* The AR-558 mission was signals intelligence related though the team may not have been.