Divisions Starfleet should have

[CoveTom]

The really stupid thing about the Mars Defense Perimeter is, what happens if the enemy travels on a trajectory that doesn't take them anywhere near Mars? Or does everyone who wants to attack Earth take as leisurely a jaunt through the solar system as the Borg did in TBOBW?

I realize that BoBW was made before CGI was practical on a TV budget and that you have to work within the realities of production limitations, but my goodness was the Mars defense perimeter pathetic looking. I hope that is not all the Federation has defending Earth.

On another note, anyone else ever notice that once the sentry ships are destroyed and the camera follows the Borg cube, Mars has just disappeared as well?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Mars has just disappeared as well?

Mars was cowering in fear from the Borg Cube after seeing it one shot all the Defense Perimeter ships.

 

[evilchumlee]

Always found it weird regular Starfleet personnel such as Picard & some senior crew and Sisko & senior crew were sent on top secret infiltration missions. You'd think they'd have a corps (perhaps not an entire division) of highly trained specialists to do just those kind of missions.

I think an issue would be is that... space is big.

They may have all sorts of special forces... but... they might not be anywhere near where they need to be deployed RIGHT NOW. If you can get them, great. But sometimes... you might not have the weeks/months it would take to get these people into action.

Especially in the TNG era, I go with the small, spread out Starfleet idea.

I do think the idea that Starfleet MUST have Marines to be a bit wrong though. Starfleets primary mission is not combat, but... Marines primary mission would be combat. They are somewhat antithetical to the primary mission. But EVEN IF Starfleet did see a need/want for Marines, there might be other implications. There may be legalities/politics in the Federation. I could see a scenario where Starfleet isn't really supposed to have ground combat troops. The Federation has ground combat troops, but they me a bit more like a NATO situation where they're coming from the member worlds home forces, not the federalized Starfleet.

That being said, I tend to include Starfleet Marines, although as a somewhat small force and even then, alot of what they do is less direct combat and acting as more as "observers" who are specially trained in combat and would take over / train the repurposed Starfleet crews when needed.

One thing I do like to do is riff on something that IS canon but not really explained. We know the Enterprise-D is assigned to the "Deep Space Exploratory Corps". I've expanded on that myself and have Starfleet divided out among several fleet corps. There's the Deep Space Exploratory Corps, which is kind of like, the holy grail for most Starfleet officers. There's some like "General Operations Corps" or some such that is like the more Coast Guard/Police/Defense fleet, and there's a "Utility Support Corps" which is the Lower Decks "utility ships". They're all still Starfleet, just in different divisions.

First would be command, and involve all the various fleet operations and components of those fleets, and starbases.

Second would be training division, and be all the components of the academies, and campuses as well as training requirements for entrance.

Third would be Engineering and ship systems, including computers. Commonly called operations.

Fourth would be sciences and research division.

Fifth would be intelligence and counterintelligence operations.

Sixth is security and defense.

Seventh would be logistics and personnel.

By and large, I think that's how Starfleet IS set up, although I think it's just complicated by the fact that they aren't completely separated divisions and just all work together directly. So like, there's not really a science fleet and a security fleet and this and that. On ships/bases, personnel from all of these divisions work directly alongside each other.

 

[flandry84]

What with replicators etc.,is there any need for a quartermasters division?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

What with replicators etc.,is there any need for a quartermasters division?

Replicators are based off of existing raw matter stock inventories.

And plenty of parts can't be replicated.

A size-able chunk of the Biology & Medical departments inventory are based off of living simple cell organisms.

Something Replicators can't replicate.

So there are plenty of inventory items that the Quarter Master needs to keep track of.

And many items in stock in the cargo holds are Pre-Assembled items or assemblies, ready to slot in should something gets broken.

So there are A LOT more things to keep track of, not less.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I do think the idea that Starfleet MUST have Marines to be a bit wrong though.

As we've discussed before, that depends a lot on what you mean by Marines, as there are at least two mostly distinct types:

Classic: Embarked combat specialists used for VIP/Force Protection, Boarding Teams and other (Covert) Small Unit Tactics operations. Given that such individuals exist within several organisations which are outside the primary "military chain of command", there is little reason to assert that Starfleet cannot or should not have such units, and indeed personnel who would fit such a description have been seen TFF and LDS. Administratively, these would be part of the "Starfleet Security Community"* that includes Starfleet Security, Starfleet Internal Affairs, Starfleet Intelligence, Starfleet Rehab and the Inspector-General's Office. It is likely that they would used for missions of relatively short duration, particularly in harsh environments.

US-style: Relatively large combined arms units with significant aero-space, infantry and heavy weapons capacity, with sufficient logistics resources to deploy for extended periods (90 days for detachments, 6 months to 2 years for a full unit). I have serious doubts that full units of such forces are active within Starfleet during peacetime, but "training, advising and counselling" personal capable of forming the leadership cadre of such units may be available within select commands and otherwise assist with security and (counter-)intelligence functions. Administratively, these are likely to sit outside the regular Starfleet "chain of command" and occupy a similar position as the various Planetary Reserve Forces from which they likely draw most of their junior ranks during wartime and other extended periods of activity (for instance it's likely that they were mobilised to assist on the ground with the Romulan evacuation efforts to free up regular Starfleet for starship service).


* Regardless of the exact "chain of command" it is obvious that these organisations would work closely together and would be to some degree distinct from the more "naval" aspects of Starfleet like the "Deep Space Exploration Corps"/"Starfleet Exploration".

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

As we've discussed before, that depends a lot on what you mean by Marines, as there are at least two mostly distinct types:

Classic: Embarked combat specialists used for VIP/Force Protection, Boarding Teams and other (Covert) Small Unit Tactics operations. Given that such individuals exist within several organisations which are outside the primary "military chain of command", there is little reason to assert that Starfleet cannot or should not have such units, and indeed personnel who would fit such a description have been seen TFF and LDS. Administratively, these would be part of the "Starfleet Security Community"* that includes Starfleet Security, Starfleet Internal Affairs, Starfleet Intelligence, Starfleet Rehab and the Inspector-General's Office. It is likely that they would used for missions of relatively short duration, particularly in harsh environments.

US-style: Relatively large combined arms units with significant aero-space, infantry and heavy weapons capacity, with sufficient logistics resources to deploy for extended periods (90 days for detachments, 6 months to 2 years for a full unit). I have serious doubts that full units of such forces are active within Starfleet during peacetime, but "training, advising and counselling" personal capable of forming the leadership cadre of such units may be available within select commands and otherwise assist with security and (counter-)intelligence functions. Administratively, these are likely to sit outside the regular Starfleet "chain of command" and occupy a similar position as the various Planetary Reserve Forces from which they likely draw most of their junior ranks during wartime and other extended periods of activity (for instance it's likely that they were mobilised to assist on the ground with the Romulan evacuation efforts to free up regular Starfleet for starship service).


* Regardless of the exact "chain of command" it is obvious that these organisations would work closely together and would be to some degree distinct from the more "naval" aspects of Starfleet like the "Deep Space Exploration Corps"/"Starfleet Exploration".

Why can't we have both?

 

[evilchumlee]

As we've discussed before, that depends a lot on what you mean by Marines, as there are at least two mostly distinct types:

Classic: Embarked combat specialists used for VIP/Force Protection, Boarding Teams and other (Covert) Small Unit Tactics operations. Given that such individuals exist within several organisations which are outside the primary "military chain of command", there is little reason to assert that Starfleet cannot or should not have such units, and indeed personnel who would fit such a description have been seen TFF and LDS. Administratively, these would be part of the "Starfleet Security Community"* that includes Starfleet Security, Starfleet Internal Affairs, Starfleet Intelligence, Starfleet Rehab and the Inspector-General's Office. It is likely that they would used for missions of relatively short duration, particularly in harsh environments.

That sounds alot like... security.

Why can't we have both?

You could.

I had just postulated a scenario where they may external factors that prevent it. The Federation may not allow Starfleet to have a US Marine-style force, preferring military ground forces be primarily up to the member worlds.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

That sounds alot like... security.

Broadly speaking, yes. After all, classical Marines were Maritime Security.

However, there's a significant difference in skillset and equipment between vanilla patrol officers (which Starfleet Security/Tactical Officers attached to "starship service" are) and the sorts of personnel mentioned above.

USCG Deployable Specialist Forces

FBI Hostage Rescue Team

The Federation may not allow Starfleet to have a US Marine-style force, preferring military ground forces be primarily up to the member worlds.

A certain amount of "advisors" might be allowed, but a lack of significant active duty combat "combined arms" personnel is the main objective measure of whether a state "has a military" or not, so that makes sense.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You could.

I had just postulated a scenario where they may external factors that prevent it. The Federation may not allow Starfleet to have a US Marine-style force, preferring military ground forces be primarily up to the member worlds.

I think the Federation's "Boots on the Ground" services will be seperate from each Member World & Member Race's independent services which are equivalent to the US National Guard model or EU's Sovereign Nation State individual Military Model.

One is the Federal UFP wide service that is mixed with service members from all Member Worlds/Planets.

The others are local to each Local Planet and/or Member Race with service members from each respective Locality.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I think the Federation's "Boots on the Ground" services

I'm inclined to suspect that there might something similar to the "National Guard Bureau" within Starfleet's structure that provides jurisdiction to act "Federation-wide", but the bulk of the personnel should be reassignments/secondments from member and affiliate forces if we're supposed to believe the legal position that Starfleet isn't a conventional military force by modern* standards.

* And to a certain extent Age of Sail/Age of Exploration navies which were emphatically "not military" despite being armed service organisations.

 

[CoveTom]

What with replicators etc.,is there any need for a quartermasters division?

Keep in mind that there were no replicators in the TOS era. Kirk specifically refers to the quartermaster issuing clothes on at least one occasion that I can recall.

 

[BillJ]

Keep in mind that there were no replicators in the TOS era. Kirk specifically refers to the quartermaster issuing clothes on at least one occasion that I can recall.

That changed with Discovery. We watch Burnham materialize a uniform when she first boards the ship.

 

[evilchumlee]

I think the Federation's "Boots on the Ground" services will be seperate from each Member World & Member Race's independent services which are equivalent to the US National Guard model or EU's Sovereign Nation State individual Military Model.

One is the Federal UFP wide service that is mixed with service members from all Member Worlds/Planets.

The others are local to each Local Planet and/or Member Race with service members from each respective Locality.

I really don't see the UFP having a federal ground military force like that.

I always envisioned something similar to a NATO model for the UFP. There really isn't a standing, unified NATO force... but there IS a command structure in place to organize the NATO members into a single command when necessary.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Requisitions are necessary because somebody still has to allocate and prioritize distribution of finished goods and raw materials.

@CoveTom it was John Christopher who needed clothes.

• KIRK: That flight suit must be uncomfortable. Why don't you have the quartermaster issue him something more suitable? Then I want to meet you and him in my quarters.
• SPOCK: Yes, sir.

One reference in TOS, one in TNG (not the Enterprise, but "Surplus Depot Zed One Five", one reference in DS9 to a sector quartermaster, Chief Willoughby, whom O'Brien needs goods from, and 4 references in ENT, 3 to the ship's quartermaster and one to the Starfleet quartermaster (head honcho, I guess).

 

[korblborp]

No marines. No standing armies. Any standing military will want to engage in conflict, directly or indirectly, to justify its existence. This is what humanity has come to understand in the future, and why Starfleet is not a military organization. Everyone in Starfleet serves some civilian job duty and could easily transition to a non-Starfleet business or organization. They get double the training in the offensive/defensive arts to take up when in the statistically rare instances (adult) diplomacy breaks down or alien contact goes awry – for only as long as it takes to establish a diplomatic resolution. They are the fully actualized citizen soldiers of Utopia.

Interstellar nations that maintain standing militaries, regardless how noble their words or superficially well-meaning their people, invariably become captured and governed by their military-industrial complexes, the personal political interests of their leaders, and the fundamental bored, frightened, and culpable vacuousness at the center of their national and individual souls.

Starfleet IS the standing military of the United Federation of Planets, regardless of it's other duties and activities, and regardless if members maintain their own defense forces or civil defense initiatives/militias.

 

[evilchumlee]

Starfleet IS the standing military of the United Federation of Planets, regardless of it's other duties and activities, and regardless if members maintain their own defense forces or civil defense initiatives/militias.

Yes, but I think the point there was that Starfleet is a military second, and there's nobody (well, few) in Starfleet who doesn't have a more civilian-oriented job first.

Modern militaries can have something similar, but they're soldiers first, x role second. Starfleet is opposite, they are like, Botanists first, soldiers second.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Starfleet IS the standing military of the United Federation of Planets,

It's certainly the standing and principle national/federal armed service tasked with the protection of the Federation. Whether that actually makes them a military organisation is a slightly more complex question that has had multiple different definitions over the centuries (for instance, the US Navy wasn't considered a "military organisation" until the second half of the 20th Century).

 

[fireproof78]

Starfleet IS the standing military of the United Federation of Planets, regardless of it's other duties and activities, and regardless if members maintain their own defense forces or civil defense initiatives/militias.

Indeed, yes, and it would be reasonable to have a division, however small, dedicated to ground combat and tactical operations. It's dangerously naive to say "oh, we don't need to worry about it's when the Federation is regularly in combat operations and border disputes that don't involve member worlds but their territory as a whole.