Divisions Starfleet should have

[evilchumlee]

Only the "yellow stripe" Cali's like the Cerritos, the "red stripe" and "blue stripe" Cali's have different functions, possibly Diplomacy in the former case.

Yes, although I think the way the Starfleet divisions interact with each other is... complicated. If we take the colored divisions as being actual divisions, they all work together side-by-side cross command by default. The divisional colors signify both organizational division and role... so even though there are gold, red, and blue stripe California's, they're still in the same fleet division, the ships just have different roles. I.e. the red stripe Cali's would still be under the Operations Division fleet, the red stripe just signifying their role within it.

Given that Communications seems to the one of the main functions of Operations Officers distinct from from Engineering or Tactical Officers, my guess would be signals intelligence* as a specialist logistics officers would be a key part of many special forces units.

* The AR-558 mission was signals intelligence related though the team may not have been.

I can see that, although in the case of Starfleet it probably extends beyond specifically "Signals Intelligence" to be a still specialized, but more general communications outfit. I would imagine the station Barclay worked at, the "Communications Research Center" was probably attached to this.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Only the "yellow stripe" Cali's like the Cerritos, the "red stripe" and "blue stripe" Cali's have different functions, possibly Diplomacy in the former case.

Is “California Love” by Tupac the official theme song of the Cali class?

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[CorporalCaptain]

Only the "yellow stripe" Cali's like the Cerritos, the "red stripe" and "blue stripe" Cali's have different functions, possibly Diplomacy in the former case.

From Memory Alpha [link]:

Per series creator/showrunner Mike McMahan:​

​

[...]​

​

We've extended the visual metaphor of the uniforms to the ships, and the Cerritos has yellow on the hull because it's primarily a second contact engineering ship. They show up to planets that need engineering stuff done on them in order to be able to communicate with the Federation.​

​

There's also, you'll see in the show, blue-hulled California-class ships, which are usually deployed to places where there has to be more medical expertise, and red-hulled ships that are like for moving around ambassadors and doing more command-level stuff. [2]​

​

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Yes, although I think the way the Starfleet divisions interact with each other is... complicated. If we take the colored divisions as being actual divisions, they all work together side-by-side cross command by default. The divisional colors signify both organizational division and role... so even though there are gold, red, and blue stripe California's, they're still in the same fleet division, the ships just have different roles. I.e. the red stripe Cali's would still be under the Operations Division fleet, the red stripe just signifying their role within it.

Part of the difficulty is that Operations is used several different (somewhat contradictory) ways at various level, though TBF this is also true of the US Navy.

The flag level "Starfleet Operations" department actually appears to be a Command-Division department tasked with top-level co-ordination strategic and tactical priorities on behalf of (the) Starfleet Command (Council) and various Federation agencies.

The "red" Cali's are probably mostly part of the Starfleet Diplomatic Corps.

I can see that, although in the case of Starfleet it probably extends beyond specifically "Signals Intelligence" to be a still specialized, but more general communications outfit. I would imagine the station Barclay worked at, the "Communications Research Center" was probably attached to this.

To clarify SIGINT and to an extent general comm/data infrastructure support would be primary speciality of any special operations field operatives assigned to Starfleet Communications, obviously personnel assigned to the (one or more) research centres might have other specialities.

 

[evilchumlee]

Part of the difficulty is that Operations is used several different (somewhat contradictory) ways at various level, though TBF this is also true of the US Navy.

The flag level "Starfleet Operations" department actually appears to be a Command-Division department tasked with top-level co-ordination strategic and tactical priorities on behalf of (the) Starfleet Command (Council) and various Federation agencies.

Starfleet really loves the word "Operations".

I think the flag-level "Starfleet Operations" isn't in the command division, it's is own "branch" so to speak that oversees... well... "Operations", Engineering and Security.

Part of what they do is definitely coordinating strategic and tactical issues, because... that's what Security does in Starfleet.

The "Command Division" I always felt might be something of a colloquial name and has a different official name. The other divisions are ultimate subordinate to "Command", but the "Command Division" has other duties as well, mostly administrative in nature (and... conn, for some reason.)

I do think that, like much of how Starfleet is portrayed, the separation of "branches" if we can call them that is much less formal than a modern military would be, and personnel moving between them is almost effortless and quite commonplace. They are definitely closer to "Departments" than a branch, and there's definitely a bunch of overlapping responsibilities. It's generally not an issue, probably mostly just due to the general culture of Starfleet. The departments/divisions/branches aren't protective over their duties/responsibilities.

The "red" Cali's are probably mostly part of the Starfleet Diplomatic Corps.

I would still prefer to them to be under the Operations Division, with the red stripe just signifying it's role within that. Again, Starfleet has these disparate divisions but they're all working side by side. So while a Red Cali would still be Operations Division, it has personnel from every division onboard, and it's particular mission profile skews more Diplomatic.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Starfleet really loves the word "Operations".

Especially on the Cali Class.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Operation Operation Operation: A red, yellow, and blue striped Cali-class team up to extract the toxic meteorite embedded in a sentient planet and negotiate a new treaty with it, once it's on the mend.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I think the flag-level "Starfleet Operations" isn't in the command division, it's is own "branch" so to speak that oversees... well... "Operations", Engineering and Security.

Except that both "Chief of Starfleet Operations" (or at least the Chief for the Sol System) are former starship commanders, and in charge of all Starfleet functions including the "command" function of starship deployments.

IMO, Engineering isn't a single department but rather at least three different department depending on function. The Corps of Engineers and the Advanced Starship Design Bureau are responsible for large scale construction and starship design projects, Starfleet Tactical co-ordinates research and development, and Starfleet Engineering Operations acts as the department within Starfleet Operations that implements the results within Starfleet as a whole.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Basically, whatever a ship specializes in, the other departments are aboard in a supportive secondary role - having more to do with maintaining their own crew and ship than going off on missions. The engineering crew of a medical ship usually doesn't expect to join away teams as often as the medical crew does, though they can expect to on occasion.

 

[evilchumlee]

Except that both "Chief of Starfleet Operations" (or at least the Chief for the Sol System) are former starship commanders, and in charge of all Starfleet functions including the "command" function of starship deployments.

Division changes occur fairly frequently in Starfleet. There's really no reason why one couldn't transfer to Command, Captain a starship, get promoted and transfer into a flag-level position in another division.

It might also be a symptom of Starfleet calling everything "Operations". The Chief of Starfleet Operations may not be the... Chief of the Starfleet Operations Division, instead being the the Chief... of the Operation... of Starfleet.

IMO, Engineering isn't a single department but rather at least three different department depending on function. The Corps of Engineers and the Advanced Starship Design Bureau are responsible for large scale construction and starship design projects, Starfleet Tactical co-ordinates research and development, and Starfleet Engineering Operations acts as the department within Starfleet Operations that implements the results within Starfleet as a whole.

That could be true, but I tend to see them more as subdivisions. I'm going to use some more generic terminology here just to highlight the differences.

There seems to be a Hierarchy of:
Operations (Division) - Flag
-> Operations (Department)

-> Engineering (Department)
--> Corps of Engineers
--> Advanced Starship Design Bureau

-> Security (Department)

Starfleet, by the 24th century for sure, is an absolutely gargantuan organization. Each of the "Color Divisions" so to speak has probably dozens if not hundreds of sub-divisions. In this case, I think there would be an overarching "Engineering Command" so to speak that would organize and coordinate the other various engineering subdepartments.

I would also maintain there is a huge amount of interdepartmental coordination. Like, the "Warp Technologies Development Group" I might put under Science, but they would definitely work with engineering all the time.

EDIT -

Random thought but I never liked the idea of Starfleet Intelligence being it's own entity/branch/division. Even though we tend to see people at least associated with Intelligence in red, it seems to make more sense for them to be under Operations. There is also a part of me that thinks each division might have it's own Intelligence arm, perhaps Starfleet Intelligence proper is under Command, Starfleet Security is obvi Operations, but even Science has... something? I'm inclined to say the Daystrom Institute may act in this role... while it's a civilian organization, it's ALSO tied to Starfleet, and I do think it could be possible that the Starfleet arm of Daystrom acts as the Science intelligence agency.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

It might also be a symptom of Starfleet calling everything "Operations". The Chief of Starfleet Operations may not be the... Chief of the Starfleet Operations Division, instead being the the Chief... of the Operation... of Starfleet.

OTOH, the "Operations" being the leadership role responsible for the bulk of an organisation's day-to-day activities is pretty common in business, government agencies and armed services

Starfleet, by the 24th century for sure, is an absolutely gargantuan organization. Each of the "Color Divisions" so to speak has probably dozens if not hundreds of sub-divisions. In this case, I think there would be an overarching "Engineering Command" so to speak that would organize and coordinate the other various engineering subdepartments.

I disagree, given that that's not how it works in broadly equivalent organisations nowadays.

I would also maintain there is a huge amount of interdepartmental coordination. Like, the "Warp Technologies Development Group" I might put under Science, but they would definitely work with engineering all the time.

I'd say more like the other way around given that the name includes the word technologies i.e. engineering.

Random thought but I never liked the idea of Starfleet Intelligence being it's own entity/branch/division.

Funny, I distinctly remember you arguing that SI must be it's own thing and couldn't possibility be a component of say... Starfleet Security, on a previous thread.

There is also a part of me that thinks each division might have it's own Intelligence arm,

In sense, though I would suspect that only the main SI component has the full range of intelligence capacities and particularly dedicated field agents.

but even Science has... something?

Maybe, though as noted above, probably not its own spies as such. However, it's not unlikely that Division 14 performs at least some of those functions, and the various mapping and imagery components could contribute to Starfleet's Image Intelligence (IMINT) gathering efforts.

I'm inclined to say the Daystrom Institute may act in this role... while it's a civilian organization, it's ALSO tied to Starfleet, and I do think it could be possible that the Starfleet arm of Daystrom acts as the Science intelligence agency.

Honestly, while the evidence is ambiguous I'd be more inclined to call it a Starfleet Division that includes more civilians than usual.

 

[evilchumlee]

OTOH, the "Operations" being the leadership role responsible for the bulk of an organisation's day-to-day activities is pretty common in business, government agencies and armed services

That's entirely true. It's mostly just complicated because Starfleet has a whole "Operations" division... and then also refers to a ton of things as "Operations".

I disagree, given that that's not how it works in broadly equivalent organisations nowadays.

The general theme is "Starfleet doesn't work like modern organizations".

I'd say more like the other way around given that the name includes the word technologies i.e. engineering.

I suppose there is something of a crossover between "Science" and "Engineering". I would generally consider engineering to be a bit more involved in the application of technologies discovered through the science research, but there's certainly overlap.

Funny, I distinctly remember you arguing that SI must be it's own thing and couldn't possibility be a component of say... Starfleet Security, on a previous thread.

I will hold to that. Starfleet Intelligence is absolutely not a component of Starfleet Security.

It doesn't need to be it's own distinct division alongside "Command", "Operations" and "Science".

Maybe, though as noted above, probably not its own spies as such. However, it's not unlikely that Division 14 performs at least some of those functions, and the various mapping and imagery components could contribute to Starfleet's Image Intelligence (IMINT) gathering efforts.

Honestly, while the evidence is ambiguous I'd be more inclined to call it a Starfleet Division that includes more civilians than usual.

Also entirely possible. Daystrom is presented as both.

I'm not entirely against it being something somewhat akin to Starfleet Academy, but with a specialization in Science.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The general theme is "Starfleet doesn't work like modern organizations".

Except when it does.

I suppose there is something of a crossover between "Science" and "Engineering". I would generally consider engineering to be a bit more involved in the application of technologies discovered through the science research, but there's certainly overlap.

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[The Wormhole]

Agreed, though I go back and forth on whether they were wartime-only combat arms personnel or "Starfleet Special Forces" (specifically something similar to USCG Port Security

Well, for what it's worth, the novels referred to them as "Starfleet Ground Forces" and they were a regular part of Starfleet, though their presence expanded during the Dominion War to the point it was debated afterwards if they should retain their expanded role or revert back to pre-war status.

O'Brian canonically saw action on the ground. Was he dedicated infantry? Or was a he a Starfleet non-com who had to go into a ground battle?

Well then you just get into the complex quagmire that is O'Brien's backstory. DS9 did say he was an infantryman in the Cardassian War, though TNG said he was the tactical officer on the Rutledge, which leads to how could a non-com be a tactical officer, but then even TNG had him be Worf's replacement as tactical officer in Redemption despite already establishing a year earlier that he was a noncom. Probably best to steer away of the topic of O'Brien's career, lest the thread become well and truly derailed.

 

[evilchumlee]

Well then you just get into the complex quagmire that is O'Brien's backstory. DS9 did say he was an infantryman in the Cardassian War, though TNG said he was the tactical officer on the Rutledge, which leads to how could a non-com be a tactical officer, but then even TNG had him be Worf's replacement as tactical officer in Redemption despite already establishing a year earlier that he was a noncom. Probably best to steer away of the topic of O'Brien's career, lest the thread become well and truly derailed.

I don't think we needed all the later stuff in that, just... no. O'Brian was not like, a Marine or some kind of dedicated ground troop. He was a Starfleet non-com who had fought in ground combat, like many have. In new entries, we see M'Benga and Chapel serving as combat medics during the war, and also M'Benga being like, Captain America or some shit but that's another topic altogether.

I'm not saying there definitely is not some sort of dedicated Starfleet ground force, but by and large from what we have seen, ground combat is undertaken by repurposed starship crews. It makes at least some amount of sense in general... Starfleet ships tend to work independently, so the crews have to be trained for damn near any potential situation, at the very least to be able to hold ground until a more specialized force could arrive... which could be weeks at the earliest depending on the situation.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

*twitch*

Sorry, it's O'Brien.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't think we needed all the later stuff in that, just... no. O'Brian was not like, a Marine or some kind of dedicated ground troop. He was a Starfleet non-com who had fought in ground combat, like many have. In new entries, we see M'Benga and Chapel serving as combat medics during the war, and also M'Benga being like, Captain America or some shit but that's another topic altogether.

I'm not saying there definitely is not some sort of dedicated Starfleet ground force, but by and large from what we have seen, ground combat is undertaken by repurposed starship crews. It makes at least some amount of sense in general... Starfleet ships tend to work independently, so the crews have to be trained for damn near any potential situation, at the very least to be able to hold ground until a more specialized force could arrive... which could be weeks at the earliest depending on the situation.

O’Brien. O apostrophe B R I E N. O’Brien.

 

[evilchumlee]

I stand corracted.