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Disney fires James Gunn from "Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3"

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no rational, moral person would rape and pedophilia as a source for humor by any stretch of the imagination.
Well I guess I'm not rational because I think anything can be a source for humour. As does a friend of mine who was abused as a child and makes jokes about it regularly. Some of them are even funny. It's not something I'd joke about myself, but he does and I'm not going to criticise him for it.

I'm not supporting the things James Gunn said in the past, but the attitude of a few people on here, that jokes about any topic could be so off limits that the person who made them should never be able to work again, seems over the top to me. He's apologised, been fired, apologised again, what more can he do?
 
So is it wrong to depict anything bad in society via humor,movies etc? I see lots murder in fiction and fighting and selling harmful drugs. Why does drama get a pass that humor doesn't? Do you not understand that it's all the same. It's make believe scenarios created to make you feel or think and care about the fictional people or be interested in them. Since conflict creates stories it means everytime you watch a movie, tv show or listen to a joke you are kind of wanting bad things to happen to people in them so they can overcome them or make you feel empathy by being able to relate to what they are going through. Comedy works the same. Have you not heard the concept that people enjoy watching fictional characters go through things they would never want to see happen to real people? Also pushing the envelope means on some level they want you to feel uncomfortable. Feeling bad or uncomfortable or sad or angry are not bad things. I've watched plenty of movies were I am disturbed and I can't get them out of my mind for days maybe ever. Go watch the movie "Compliance" or "Tusks" or somewhat more lighter unless you really don't like sex "Sausage Party." All those negative feelings or shocks are good things. Unless the artist fails and then it looks horrible.


Jason
 
...which was and remains topic drift in a thread where the act, motives and consequences of speech was the subject (the very reason Gunn was fired), hence the legitimate references to Trump, Joy Reid, Kevin Hart, Roseanne and others who made statements and/or posts considered controversial/intolerable, who--by the way--are all over the social/political/ideological map, so there's not the kind of politicized targeting employed by certain members in this thread. Another member trying to shift this very specific topic into yet another "my rights are.." argument is frankly self-serving (here), detracts from the issues, as it would be if you (for example) tried to conflate this into a debate about your interest in / imagined right to introduce your kids to recreational drug use under the idea that its good for their social development, or I wanted to discuss the Sessions Justice Department's look into way of labeling even more real black activism groups as "black identity extremists" (read: terrorists and a fast track to legal abuses / prison that would threaten members of my family).

You realise any attempt I make to respond to this would be genuine topic drift? :confused:
 
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I see a problem with anyone passing off what Gunn did as "jokes" when no rational, moral person would rape and pedophilia as a source for humor by any stretch of the imagination.

I can't figure out whether this makes me irrational, immoral, both, or just means that my imagination can stretch farther than yours can.

(shrugs) Oh well.
 
Those jokes go beyond being "disliked" though, imagine the conversation we'd be having if they had been about homophobic or racist assaults, imagine if they'd gone from "I want to do X, Y, Z" to "I want to batter and maim.....".

The acts being described have real traumatic implications for many people reading them and frankly in my mind the jokes are indefensible. (notice the emphasis, it matters)

I believe in every instance in which I've referred to the jokes I've made clear my feeling that they weren't necessarily appropriate humor. Still, they originated years ago and the source apologized for them.

Should I hold a grudge against every former homophobe who said hurtful things to me, even if they apologized? I think it's better and more healthy for me to instead say "What you did was shitty, but you apologized and you seem to have changed, so...alright then." I certainly wouldn't say "but I'm also your boss, and I just remembered that what you said really hurt me back then, so clean out your desk."
 
So is it wrong to depict anything bad in society via humor,movies etc?

Yes, if you don't like it. That's the whole part about trying to protect a brand image (aka Disney).

...so off limits that the person who made them should never be able to work again

I don't see many people saying Gunn should never work again, only that Disney was justified in firing him and that he has more work to do to repair his rep besides issue a written statement and have his friends and defenders run around making excuses for him while going into seclusion. The seclusion part, IMHO, makes him come across like Kevin Spacey or John Lasseter.
 
Yes, if you don't like it. That's the whole part about trying to protect a brand image (aka Disney).



I don't see many people saying Gunn should never work again, only that Disney was justified in firing him and that he has more work to do to repair his rep besides issue a written statement and have his friends and defenders run around making excuses for him while going into seclusion. The seclusion part, IMHO, makes him come across like Kevin Spacey or John Lasseter.

I agree his jokes were pretty much indefensible and I have no problem with him being fired, even though he originally apologized for all this years ago and has changed. But much of the conversation on the last few pages (particularly from @trekgod) has focused on this bizarre idea that what he did was completely and totally unforgiveable no matter what and anyone who defends him in any or associates with him in any way, even if they agree that the tweets were wrong and should never haved happened, is a terrible person who deserves to be righteously scorned by society. At one point it was specifically mentioned that if WB hired Gunn, there would be monumental moral outrage and WB would deserve every minute of it for daring to hire him.

This is obviously totally non-sensical and is quite rightly being refuted. He apologized, he changed, and he lost his job. He doesn't need to spend the rest of his life living in the penalty box for his past stupidity.
 
They fired the wrong man.

James Gunn then deserved to be fired. Especially back when Disney first learned of this. He had a lesson to learn and needed to change, the stuff he said was vile.

James Gunn now, who is to many a different man, did not deserve this. Firing the man now gives him no new lesson to learn, he already knew he had to change and he did. Disney doing this now puts them in them in the wrong and, if they truly wanted to be fair, would fire the people who hired Gunn in the first place or the people who kept him on when this all first came to light a decade ago. But this isn't about teaching lessons. Or being fair. Obviously.
 
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I was originally very upset when I heard about James Gunn's horrible tweets (and yes they're horrible, no matter how much he's only joking or he doesn't really mean them), and I knew nothing about his apology in 2012. So for me everything was very fresh, and I was as outraged as anyone, and my anger wasn't politically motivated or anything, I'm as liberal as anyone else, and what he said really was upsetting. I've had time to process everything now, and my emotional state has settled down, and I completely agree his crimes have been blown out of proportion, especially how things are going on.

I do feel @Awesome Possum's absolutely justified bringing politics into this, because really bringing up his disgrace was totally politically motivated, and you know very well there's a real dichotomy with how these things are treated differently by liberals and conservatives when people on their side do bad things, and so few conservatives actually care about any victims. When a liberal person does something like this, his or her own people are the first to denounce him and ruin him, but when you have a conservative doing something so much worse his people will happily look away and want him honored, and that's what's really so very frustrating.

And you know perfectly well James Gunn has no victims. Oh yes of course, people can be really upset by what he said, and his comments can totally be triggering and everything, but he never targeted any particular person, he never molested a child or abused a woman, or tried to deny rights to a transgender person. Not like Roy Moore who has real underage women as victims, and of course Republicans don't care, they'd still love to see him in political office, right? And of course Donald Trump as our biggest example, he's cheated on his wives, talked about sexually assaulting women, he's definitely sexually harassed women, and done much more, and no conservative cares about his victims. And Rosanne is a raging racist, and of course from a conservative perspective she's been persecuted by ABC, and you don't see any of them caring about her victims or anything.

You know conservatives are completely and absolutely morally bankrupt, and care only about power and dominance, and they don't care how awful their own people are as long as they're winning, and people like myself and Awesome Possum find this absolutely terrifying. And most of their followers look to us like they're brainwashed, believing false stories of freedom and fairness while their rights and agencies are taken away piece by piece, they're just so gleeful someone else is getting it worse than themselves right now.

And so what's troubling is you've got these alt-right people working so hard to disgrace someone like James Gunn, not because they care even one moment about what he said, because if they did they've got such worse offenders on their own side they'd be going after, but just because of politics, so absolutely this whole thing's a political discussion. Yes James definitely shouldn't have ever said those things, he's totally wrong, and yes it's his words ultimately getting him in trouble, but that's totally not at all the point, right? So you've got conservatives who don't care about people at all, being so gleeful how liberals destroy one of their own advocates, while they toast their horrendous monster sitting in the White House right now, among many others on their side much worse than James.

And I'm even seeing people in this thread, pretending to be all morally upright, when like from some people here I've seen nothing but disgusting misogyny in so many other discussions on this message board, your outrage feels totally fake, cheering on a "gotcha" type moment or something.

This is really hard for a lot of people, many of us really loved James' work and his movies, and are really sad by what's happened. I feel it's so difficult, because I want him to keep making movies, and at the same time I know what he said was wrong and I'm disgusted by it, but I'm also realizing how long ago it was and while bad you've really got to consider everything going on and context. And knowing it's all brought up by people who don't for one second give a single care at all to how his words may have hurt people, that's what's really frustrating and 100% makes any conversations about his firing political. So please don't pretend any kind of political aspect of what's going on here is like a diversion from his story, because it's totally the center of his story. Those people who are pretending they're so upset by his transphobic comments are trying to strip away transgender rights, and while they're pretending they're traumatized by his pedophilia jokes are trying to get known pedophiles elected to office.
 
It's a sad joke to suggest that if one likes two movies that are written and directed by one person, that one ought to expect to enjoy a third installment written and directed by other people instead, all because of the branding.

Studios love folks who do think that way, of course. I mean, who cares what minimum wage kid is slapping the beef patties on the conveyer at MickeyD's - they all get the same twenty-minute orientation and training, right?

I mean, if "Marvel Universe" means something to viewers other than "next year's megamovie fast food shit" then yeah, sure. If it's The Brand for a given viewer, okay. But I just go to the movies and either like or dislike them as I see them. Gunn made two good movies that I enjoyed despite my negative expectations set by the fact that they'd been crapped out by the studio machine responsible for Thor This and Thor That and Oh, And Another Thor as well as a number of other loud lame blockbusters.
 
I believe in every instance in which I've referred to the jokes I've made clear my feeling that they weren't necessarily appropriate humor. Still, they originated years ago and the source apologized for them.

Should I hold a grudge against every former homophobe who said hurtful things to me, even if they apologized? I think it's better and more healthy for me to instead say "What you did was shitty, but you apologized and you seem to have changed, so...alright then." I certainly wouldn't say "but I'm also your boss, and I just remembered that what you said really hurt me back then, so clean out your desk."

And you're missing the point in the very quote you used where I emphasised (and reiterated the emphasis) the distinction between forgiveness and defending the jokes. I don't mean to sound rude but it's as though you've responded to a completely different comment to the one you quoted.

This isn't about personal comments made to an individual, nor is it about holding a grudge. It's about comments made in the public arena by a high profile person. Sure he can be forgiven by those of us who've suffered the kind of abuse he jested about, but that doesn't in anyway make the tweets defensible nor does it mean he should realistically expect to be working for a company like Disney who have every right to protect their brand.
 
The thing that baffles me about the right's attempts to limit the rights of everyone who isn't them, is why the fuck any of it even matters to them. It's not like giving gays, women, or minorities more rights takes anything away from them.
For a lot of them - the above is NOT what 'God' wants (and didn't you know, Jesus was Blonde/brown haired and Western European to boot); and it's all because it's 'God's Word'™
^^^
And believe me, I wish I was joking. But these are the folks driving GOP policies these days - and not to be confused with actual Conservative values - although I'm not what I would call a Conservative, I'm definitely more Liberal in my views, but I don't find Conservatives in general bad people. The 'Religious Right' and their often in step Neo-Nazi collaborators <--- they all need to take a long walk off a short pier.
 
There’s no moral universe if one cannot forgive someone who has apologized, faced consequences and changed. If one cannot do that, if one cannot truly forgive and recognize change, you cannot claim a moral high ground. No matter how outraged you are.

Forgive? Yes

Forget? Once maybe, but not in this day and age of social media.

Defend? Nope.
 
Then the best way for Gunn to beat back the shadow of his former self is to speak up and not go hide under a rock the same way a guilty person does.

"The guilty dog barks the loudest". Common sense and well known adages seem to contradict your narrow-minded train of thought.

Let's not be ignorant please, you are not him and have no idea what he's thinking right now.

And guilty of what, anyways? Who's denying he said those things, and what has he done since then?
 
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He's not speaking out because playing along with Disney is in his best interest. He is still under contract and they could hold him in it preventing him from making movies with other studios. Plus he's a reasonable adult, unlike the people who started this shit.
 
Forgive? Yes

Forget? Once maybe, but not in this day and age of social media.

Forgiveness and forgetting are not mutually exclusive things.

Defend? Nope.

Is anyone defending the jokes?

Or are you saying defending Gunn? I wouldn't defend Gunn if I hadn't felt like he changed and legitimately apologized. But, I feel he has. So, as a person, yeah, I would defend Gunn. But, I wouldn't... like Gunn himself, defend the jokes.


Then the best way for Gunn to beat back the shadow of his former self is to speak up and not go hide under a rock the same way a guilty person does.

Good god, what the hell does he have to do? Go on every show and apologize again and again? He issued a statement shortly after the firing, AGREEING with the decision and AGAIN apologized for behavior he stopped doing years ago.

What more do people want? A pound of flesh? Jail time?
 
Prediction: James Gunn will never again be involved in a Disney production.
His firing will serve as eternal fodder for the "Hollywood liberals are hypocrites and thus need to be ignored" crowd.
Marvel films will continue to make billions of dollars.
 
And you're missing the point in the very quote you used where I emphasised (and reiterated the emphasis) the distinction between forgiveness and defending the jokes. I don't mean to sound rude but it's as though you've responded to a completely different comment to the one you quoted.

This isn't about personal comments made to an individual, nor is it about holding a grudge. It's about comments made in the public arena by a high profile person. Sure he can be forgiven by those of us who've suffered the kind of abuse he jested about, but that doesn't in anyway make the tweets defensible nor does it mean he should realistically expect to be working for a company like Disney who have every right to protect their brand.

I believe while I've said they were jokes (made a long time ago) I never claimed that the jokes themselves were defensible (beyond that we all do really stupid things sometimes, I suppose). As I said, I believe I've expressly said each time I've mentioned them that they were likely in pretty bad taste (though I haven't read and have no interest in reading them).

If I would defend anything, it would be the dredging up of an incident from years ago that nobody now would likely give a damn about if there hadn't been a concerted effort to kick the ant hill.

FWIW, you didn't sound rude.

I've also never said that Disney didn't have the right to fire him. I just have reservations about their decision.

So...I'm not sure what part of what I have said you're taking issue with?
 
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