Discovery ending with Season 5

[Lord Garth]

I find it bizarre in the star trek fandom that those who are losing an argument or general lack of intellect resort to the "because he's white/black/male" argument in one step. It's utterly perplexing. I will perhaps make it simpler for you to understand so you don't have to get into gender/race baiting. There is no need to get defensive..

It was just to point out your potential hypocrisy. If you can admit NuKirk is a Mary Sue then great. But then it begs the question: How can you be okay with any version of Kirk but not be okay with Burnham?

You also didn't address my other points, just the one that you thought gave you an upper-hand, so I'll repeat: Fucked up and got her Captain killed, then sent to prison? Check. Rightfully or wrongfully blamed for starting a war? Check. Then has to spend the rest of the first season trying to prove herself? Check. That's not what happens with Mary Sues.

Tell me how I'm wrong about any of that. I'll take a non-answer as acknowledgement that you think I have a point but can't admit it. in order to maintain appearances.

 

[Lord Garth]

Oh, and I'm calling your bluff...

Shall I go on?

Go on, please. Let's have it.

 

[Tuskin38]

This could possibly be its own thread or taken to DMs

 

[Lord Garth]

This could possibly be its own thread or taken to DMs

Save the mini-moderating. I used to be a moderator myself. I know what I'm doing.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Shall I go on?

Sure. Go on being wrong. It's all in your own time and it's funnier because you're doing it publicly.

The male version of Mary Sue is called a protagonist.

Brilliantly said.

 

[XCV330]

I find it bizarre in the star trek fandom that those who are losing an argument or general lack of intellect resort to the "because he's white/black/male" argument in one step. It's utterly perplexing. I will perhaps make it simpler for you to understand so you don't have to get into gender/race baiting. There is no need to get defensive.

NuKirk is a MarySue, it's a tentpole big budget movie designed at that time to be like a sci-fi superhero action movie. He is no different to a batman or superman scaling heights and doing death defying stunts and saving the day with one of his sidekicks.
Burnham is also a MarySue however she is in a long form serialised star trek TV show which seems to relish on her acting like being the big budget super hero that solves everyone's problems and magics her way to saving everything occasionally relying on some of her sidekicks, much like NuKirk as you call him. Her backstory tragedy is part of her...arrogance in starting a war, arrogance in getting her captain killed..."I know better than you".

It's been proven over and over that Burnham was in many of the same situations as other star trek characters and did not get the same treatment. Burnham, however had an unforgiveable blackness and there were certain fans, who I will politely call fucking closet racists, who could not let that go, whether they liked it or not. Not everyone who disliked Burnham's character fit the description, but don't be so disingenuous to pretend it's not real. Present company excepted, of course.

 

[fireproof78]

You also didn't address my other points, just the one that you thought gave you an upper-hand, so I'll repeat: Fucked up and got her Captain killed, then sent to prison? Check. Rightfully or wrongfully blamed for starting a war? Check. Then has to spend the rest of the first season trying to prove herself? Check. That's not what happens with Mary Sues.

And finally, what author insert is the Burnham? That's always my curiosity.

It's been proven over and over that Burnham was in many of the same situations as other star trek characters and did not get the same treatment. Burnham, however had an unforgiveable blackness and there were certain fans, who I will politely call fucking closet racists, who could not let that go, whether they liked it or not. Not everyone who disliked Burnham's character fit the description, but don't be so disingenuous to pretend it's not real. Present company excepted, of course.

Agreed. I looked at my calendar and felt I was back in 2018 again.

Happy Pie Day everyone!

 

[Set Harth]

I wish the Doctors on Docotor Who would last longer than three seasons each. Speaking as a non-fan off on the sidelines, it seems to me like they're going through too many of them too fast. Just an outsider's point of view.

Tom Baker be like "Yo!"

 

[FederationHistorian]

Tragic backstory? Check
Talented, overskilled saviour even for those who you would think would have more expertise? Check
Explicitly and unnecessarily loved, adored, admired by everyone? Check
Has some highly adored franchise character as a father/brother/sister? Check
Smug? Check
Emotionally overpowering? Check

Shall I go on?

This describes Burnham in S2-4.

Fucked up and got her Captain killed, then sent to prison? Check. Rightfully or wrongfully blamed for starting a war? Check. Then has to spend the rest of the first season trying to prove herself? Check. That's not what happens with Mary Sues.

Furthermore, why aren't you calling NuKirk a Mary Sue? Or even Kirk in genreal? Wait. I know. Let's be honest. He's a white male. Don't lie and say it's something else.

This describes Burnham in S1.

Even there was no intent for her to become a Mary Sue, Burnham became a Mary Sue.

 

[Lord Garth]

Even there was no intent for her to become a Mary Sue, Burnham became a Mary Sue.

Then talk about Seasons 2-4.

And talk about how it's not a problem in any other Star Trek series, but somehow is a problem in DSC. Why this one series and none of the others?

 

[Tuskin38]

Burnham became a Mary Sue.

Also describes, Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway etc

 

[Commander K]

Also describes, Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway etc

It doesn't describe any of them, that's absurd. The only other leading character to do this is Mariner in Lower Decks and that is meant to be intentionally slapstick and satirical.

Others you mention had a natural growth evolved over seasons of television. Shatner gets put in that bracket simply because people blur the lines between James Kirk and William Shatner (who can come across as arrogant as a person).

 

[FederationHistorian]

And talk about how it's not a problem in any other Star Trek series, but somehow is a problem in DSC. Why this one series and none of the others?

Also describes, Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway etc

Did the audience have trouble suspending disbelief with Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway?

 

[fireproof78]

Kirk:
trauma history-check.
made a mistake that he thought was his fault and killed his captain-check
considered one of the best captains by his peers? Check.
Wish fulfillment character? Check.

Kirk is a Mary Sue.

 

[Lord Garth]

It doesn't describe any of them, that's absurd. The only other leading character to do this is Mariner in Lower Decks and that is meant to be intentionally slapstick and satirical.

Others you mention had a natural growth evolved over seasons of television. Shatner gets put in that bracket simply because people blur the lines between James Kirk and William Shatner (who can come across as arrogant as a person).

Rose-Tinted Nostalgia Glasses at their rosiest.

Sisko was a God whose birth was arranged by the Prophets. He made first contact with the Dominion, was pivotal in the war, stopped an invasion simply because he was The Chosen One, a.k.a. The Emissary, and then fought Dukat in a battle to the death in Fire Caves as Good vs. Evil, and then promised -- like Christ -- that he'd be back.

Captain Picard, single-handedly chosen by the Borg to be a companion to The Borg Queen and chosen to be assimilated to oversee the attack on the Federation. K'Mpec turned to Picard and made him the Arbiter of Succession when determining who the next leader of the Klingon High Concil would be. The Q Continuum decided to deny Humanity existence and put Humanity on trial for its savagery. Who's chosen to represent all of Humanity? Picard.

Finally, Kirk himself. In the movies alone, he saved Earth twice, once in TMP and once in TVH, and saved the President of the Federation in TUC. He was chosen as The Person to reach out to the Klingons. Because if they sent Kirk, they it meant they were serious. Subsequently referred to as a legend in Star Trek that takes place after it.

 

[Lord Garth]

Did the audience have trouble suspending disbelief with Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway?

Nice dodge when I asked you for specifics. Answer the question I asked you earlier. What specifically makes her a Mary Sue in Seasons 2-4 and tell me why those reasons are a problem in DSC but not in other series.

 

[Commander K]

This describes Burnham in S2-4.



This describes Burnham in S1.

Even there was no intent for her to become a Mary Sue, Burnham became a Mary Sue.

Absolutely agree with you, she didnt evolve and she developed into something completely different. The showrunner is much to blame. The set up originally was a character we were to despise for effectively killing her captain and hopefully as seasons went on she to would redeem herself and become likeable (perhaps like where Shaw is going) but they turned her into someone who becomes less likeable as seasons went on. It was almost a given there would be an eye rolling moment where the triptych of Burn Cries/Burnham whispers/Burnham figures everything out-for-everyone would come as season passed. Was harder to empathise with her cause(s).

 

[Commander K]

I would also argue Discovery was star trek in name but not in traditional storytelling of past treks but followed more contemporary soap-dramatic storytelling based around one character, it had the NuKirk cinematic tropes I mentioned earlier.

 

[Lord Garth]

I would also argue Discovery was star trek in name but not in traditional storytelling, it had the NuKirk cinematic tropes I mentioned earlier. At the end of the day there was one person to save us.

Sisko. "Sacrifice of Angels".
Picard. "All Good Things".

 

[fireproof78]

Jim Kirk.

"Once again we have saved civilization as we know it."