Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST VI?

[Bry_Sinclair]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

^ Well, this involves a bit of retconning. But remember how Scotty gave Worf that funny look in Relics? Didn't seem too enlightened there, did he?

The peace treaty was only a couple years old by the time Scotty vanished. Given that he has always served during the time when hostilities between the UFP and Empire were rife, it's not surprising he treated Worf with caution.

What's more interesting is that at one stage the role that Valeris ended up playing was intended for Saavik. IIRC, Gene Rodenberry was the first to complain, saying that Saavik was 'one of the family now' and that this would be a betrayal. Although GR's influence was somewhat diminished at this stage, ultimately TPTB agreed with him and the character was re-written (but Kirstie Alley's unavailability/ price tag could have been a factor too).

By ST:VI it was apparent that they weren't going to do anymore TOS movies, and Savvik's role in TVH was limited to approximately 30 seconds so why the hell not make it Savvik? Plus, knowing that Savvik was 'one of the family' it would have made a great twist in the story and brought actual closure to the character.

Nick Meyer wanted Kirstie Alley for STIV, but she refused to do the part. Likewise, he wanted to bring James Horner back to score the film, but by 1991, Horner had become successful enough that the production simply could not afford his going rate at the time.

I don't know if anything's ever been said about why they couldn't get Robin Curtis back, or even why if she was available, they didn't want her back for the part.

Because Curtis was a terrible Saavik

I think part of the reason Valeris became Valeris was Mr Roddenberry's influence, but also the fact that they didn't want to cast a third actress in the role.

 

[Enterprise is Great]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

Didn't the TOS Section 31 novel show Cartwright as a Section 31 member?

 

[Captaindemotion]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

What's more interesting is that at one stage the role that Valeris ended up playing was intended for Saavik. IIRC, Gene Rodenberry was the first to complain, saying that Saavik was 'one of the family now' and that this would be a betrayal. Although GR's influence was somewhat diminished at this stage, ultimately TPTB agreed with him and the character was re-written (but Kirstie Alley's unavailability/ price tag could have been a factor too).

By ST:VI it was apparent that they weren't going to do anymore TOS movies, and Savvik's role in TVH was limited to approximately 30 seconds so why the hell not make it Savvik? Plus, knowing that Savvik was 'one of the family' it would have made a great twist in the story and brought actual closure to the character.

Nick Meyer wanted Kirstie Alley for STIV, but she refused to do the part. Likewise, he wanted to bring James Horner back to score the film, but by 1991, Horner had become successful enough that the production simply could not afford his going rate at the time.

I don't know if anything's ever been said about why they couldn't get Robin Curtis back, or even why if she was available, they didn't want her back for the part.

I vaguely recall reading an interview with Curtis, wherein she said she'd hoped to be asked back. She was told something along the lines of that the studio and producers hoped to land a big name, someone who would bring casual viewers along. Alley, who was then a regular on Cheers was obviously under contention, and when the part was re-written, they looked at other names. Curtis expressed her disappointment that they'd cast Kim Cattrall - she stressed that she respected her as an actress and had nothing against her, but didn't really see how Cattrall (who hadn't yet become famous for Sex and The City) really constituted a box-office draw.

 

[BruntFCA]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

I liked it, it had more impact coming from someone we saw before.

 

[Redfern]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

To answer the question I tossed to the group, my first "flashing" thought was either Scotty or Chekov as well. Not that I like those characters any less than the others and thus stamp them the "villains", but given their personalities, I'd find them, particularly Chekov, more believable in this situation.

As for any of the actors not wanting to sully their characters, hmm, I can see Walter Koenig going for this. Any B5 fans here? Remember his recurring role as Alfred Bester of the Psi Corps? You could tell he had a ball with that part. It was certainly "meatier" than anything scripted for him in Trek. If the writers of Trek VI had provided an adequate motivation (that would not have ended cut from the final print), I think he might have gone for it.

But even if Koenig jumped at the opportunity, you know the various PTB would not have allowed any of the main characters to be tainted on what would likely be (and turned out to be) their last outings as an entire group. Bad for marketing.

Sincerely,

Bill

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

(non-canon)

fan fiction rather than anything supported by canon

Of course, all fiction outside of the on screen material, whether pro-fiction or fan-fiction, is equally non-canon.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

True, but initially I was wondering whether it was something that had happened in the novels.

 

[doubleohfive]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

I might be misremembering the rumor I heard a few years ago but - wasn't Kim Cattrall having an affair with Nick Meyer at the time too? Or am I remembering someone/something else?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

^ I don't think so, no.

Didn't the TOS Section 31 novel show Cartwright as a Section 31 member?

That bit is true, yes.

 

[Maurice]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

I'm sure Miss Curtis was not in on the actual decision making, no matter what she might have been told. Meyer himself has said he wanted Kirstie Alley back, but...

...absent Kirstie Alley, we decided it would be better to introduce a new character.

Nicholas Meyer, The View From the Bridge, p.212

My guess is he didn't like Robin Curtis's portrayal, and rather than re-recast the part, decided to just to reboot the protege.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

^ I don't think so, no.

Didn't the TOS Section 31 novel show Cartwright as a Section 31 member?

That bit is true, yes.

God, I hate Section 31. Every time someone has a lapse in judgement people start hollering that they're obviously a member.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

^ I don't think so, no.

Didn't the TOS Section 31 novel show Cartwright as a Section 31 member?

That bit is true, yes.

God, I hate Section 31. Every time someone has a lapse in judgement people start hollering that they're obviously a member.

Well I think Cast No Shadow reconts this as Cloak had Cartwright as an Admiral during TOS while the more recent Cast No Shadow had him as a Starship Captain during the TMP era.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

^ I don't think so, no.

Didn't the TOS Section 31 novel show Cartwright as a Section 31 member?

That bit is true, yes.

God, I hate Section 31. Every time someone has a lapse in judgement people start hollering that they're obviously a member.

Then again, there are certain 'plots' that so obviously fit Section 31's methods that I can't help but think there must be a connection. ST VI is a perfect example of this. That conspiracy is exactly the sort of thing Section 31 regularly engages in.

The S31 novels also link Admiral Dougherty to the organization. That bit is more sketchy, I admit. (Although I happen to agree with it.)

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

^ I don't think so, no.

Didn't the TOS Section 31 novel show Cartwright as a Section 31 member?

That bit is true, yes.

God, I hate Section 31. Every time someone has a lapse in judgement people start hollering that they're obviously a member.

Yeah, I think if left to fans it'd be an issue of who wasn't in Section 31 and what incidents didn't involve them.

 

[Anticitizen]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

^ I don't think so, no.



That bit is true, yes.

God, I hate Section 31. Every time someone has a lapse in judgement people start hollering that they're obviously a member.

Yeah, I think if left to fans it'd be an issue of who wasn't in Section 31 and what incidents didn't involve them.

I agree that we should never hear about Section 31 again. Much of DS9 was about the inhumanities/indiscretions of war, and Section 31 was created by the writers to illustrate a thematic element within that framework. This story was completed and mention of Section 31 outside that framework is out of place.

Yes, it's POSSIBLE that Section 31 is behind every conspiracy in the Alpha Quadrant, but if we're going to think like that, might as well consider the aliens from the TNG episode 'Conspiracy' - another one-off mystery force that's never heard from again after their storytelling use is expired.

 

[Captain Nebula]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

Now, can you imagine the apoplexy if one of the classic crew turned out to be the traitor?!

Uhura should have known it was Valeris (and then what does it mean if she did?). She saw Valeris change the data banks, at least in one movie version. In the recent DVD version Uhura watched her do it and then looked away.

All the Director's Cuts and Special Editions and such have convoluted the story to where you can't be sure what was in the original.

 

[Albertese]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

...

All the Director's Cuts and Special Editions and such have convoluted the story to where you can't be sure what was in the original.

Seriously! I just want a DVD of the theatrical version without the Colonel Odo/Scooby Doo ending and without the retarded flashes of the conspirators during the Spock/Valares mind meld.

Is that so much to ask?

--Alex

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

Uhura should have known it was Valeris (and then what does it mean if she did?). She saw Valeris change the data banks, at least in one movie version. In the recent DVD version Uhura watched her do it and then looked away.

Eh? I don't remember that...

 

[Ian Keldon]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

^ And there's the 'guess who's coming to dinner' comment (originally written for Uhurua but Nichelle Nichols refused to say it).

Of course, it would never have happened, as all of the original actors were so protective of their characters that they would never have allowed it to happen; and I can understand and respect that. But it would have made for a very powerful twist.

She wasn't the only one complaining. The actor playing Cartwright kicked up quite a fuss at the racist overtones of his dialogue as well. That's why Cartwright looks so uncomfortable saying those lines. The actor was uncomfortable.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V

I don't quite get it, honestly. I mean, the dialog is supposed to be uncomfortable. If the audience isn't fazed by what the characters are saying then it's ineffective.

If you want your character to be a saint, then fine...but given these characters' prior experiences with the Klingons (and who knows what they might have gone through recently) I wasn't surprised that they might have become biased.

It's called acting.