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Spoilers Did Picard finally ''right the ship'' with Picard season 3?

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Jack was conceived after NEM. So aside from having to buy he's early 20's, it doesn't mess with canon. And I'd rather he have aged quickly than be cast with a less capable actor.

Nothing misfires with her character. She has nuance. She has positive energy. Makes a good initial impression that you want to see more with the character, and hopes she's part of a realized Legacy.

A big part of Picard's ethos and storylines for the past 35 years is that he doesn't want a family and him coming to terms with being the last Picard. The shows and movies have gone over and over this. You claim canon is extremely important to you yet giving Picard a son messes up what they spent all those years building.

Having nuance and positive energy is not characterization. Lots of people make a good first impression and have positive energy. The doctor had positive energy and made a good first impression. Did she have a great characterization also? What exactly do we know about Sidney that makes her such a great character? Cause it's basically nothing after ten episodes. And again, I liked her! I'd be happy to see her again, but they gave her basically nothing character wise outside of crushing on Jack and beefing with Geordi. That's not good character world.
 
I just treat them as fictional stories told over an almost 60 year period. Yeah, there will be inconsistencies and updates, some better than others.

Same. They are TV shows. It's why I can watch an episode of SNW followed by an episode of TOS and have no problem believing it's the same ship with many of the same characters. I don't have to wonder why the ship looks different. I don't even give it a second thought. It looks different because one was made in 2022 and the other in 1966.
 
Same. They are TV shows. It's why I can watch an episode of SNW followed by an episode of TOS and have no problem believing it's the same ship with many of the same characters. I don't have to wonder why the ship looks different. I don't even give it a second thought. It looks different because one was made in 2022 and the other in 1966.
THIS × 1000
 
For me, trying to hold Matalas accountable for season 2 is like trying to hold Bryan Fuller accountable for DISCOVERY season 1. Yes, Matalas had some more lasting influence in the respective first two episodes, but he was never the senior showrunner, on set, or in the edit bay.

The massive drop off after 201 and 202 alone shows the difference with Matalas there, and him effectively gone. At least season 2 had Dave Blass and company.

The broad outline of the season seems fine... Q, alternate reality, time travel, new take while respecting earlier Trek lore on 21st century Earth... It's in the execution that it falls apart.

Terry worked for Picard for well over a year as co-showrunner before season 2 started filming. He had a major part of developing the season and has said the major story ideas (minus Picard's mom) were his ideas - including spending all season in the past which people hated. Yvette's mental illness and suicide was Akiva. We really don't know when Terry left to work on season 3 but considering most of the season 2 and 3 writers are the same I would think it was after season 2 was already broken down and written and then they started working on season 3 when season 2 was in production.

I mean every episode of season 2 has a season 3 writer attached to it. So unless they were writing both seasons at the same time (which would explain a lot about both seasons) Terry and the writers room didn't really break down season 3 until season 2 was written....by that same season 3 writer's room.
 
is that its detractors don't so much argue how it's narratively worse than any other season of Star Trek.

It's not that it's any worse. I don't think anyone has said that. It's that it isn't any better. It's not the second coming of Star Trek.

It has all the same "problems" as the other shows, but because it's the TNG cast, a segment of the fandom will gleefully look the other way.

Between the Titan-A refit discussion, the Riker/Picard "you've killed us all" fight that went nowhere, Shaw being a rip off of Quint from Jaws, the character assination of Beverly, Jack being a male "Mary Sue," The Enterprise pulling a Return of the Jedi, and the Borg queen being a mustache twirling villian......

You know with absolutely certainly that had it been Discovery doing these things, they would be eviscerated by certain fans.
 
It has all the same "problems" as the other shows, but because it's the TNG cast, a segment of the fandom will gleefully look the other way.

Yup, this has been noted by myself and others. I've even seen some youtube reviewers start to comment about it. One even pointed out and compared how it had some of the same things people complained about Discovery having and pointed out, with examples, how Picard S3 had those exact same things. It's also interesting that the people who are calling Picard a return to Trek on youtube also complain about other Trek shows being "woke." I truly think they do not like the diversity of the new shows and as someone who believes the diversity of the 90s shows (especially TNG and Enterprise) wasn't that great that is what they want a return to. I mean many youtube reviewers pretty make it pretty obvious...one even pretty much said it outright..another complained about season 1 because *women* were shown to be in charge and rude to Picard.
 
imagine your team has lost for several years, and finally gains a win.

PIC S3 is certainly a big win ratings-wise, but ST wasn't losing before then. It was doing fine.

But if you move it too far away from being Star Trek, it's no longer Star Trek. And people have the right to be unhappy if the structural foundations of the franchise are being destabilized.

Maybe, but DIS, SNW, and PIC S1-2 did not move too far away from being ST.

Nothing misfires with her character. She has nuance.

"My dad won't accept me because I wanted to do X and he wanted me to do Y" is not nuance.

It gives an example of what Star Trek done right looks like that isn't two decades old.

We already had that in Star Trek Beyond, Star Trek: Discovery, Star Trek: Picard Season One, Star Trek: Lower Decks, and Star Trek: Prodigy.

It's not that it's any worse. I don't think anyone has said that. It's that it isn't any better. It's not the second coming of Star Trek.

It has all the same "problems" as the other shows, but because it's the TNG cast, a segment of the fandom will gleefully look the other way.

Between the Titan-A refit discussion, the Riker/Picard "you've killed us all" fight that went nowhere, Shaw being a rip off of Quint from Jaws, the character assination of Beverly, Jack being a male "Mary Sue," The Enterprise pulling a Return of the Jedi, and the Borg queen being a mustache twirling villian......

You know with absolutely certainly that had it been Discovery doing these things, they would be eviscerated by certain fans.

100%.

Yup, this has been noted by myself and others. I've even seen some youtube reviewers start to comment about it. One even pointed out and compared how it had some of the same things people complained about Discovery having and pointed out, with examples, how Picard S3 had those exact same things. It's also interesting that the people who are calling Picard a return to Trek on youtube also complain about other Trek shows being "woke." I truly think they do not like the diversity of the new shows and as someone who believes the diversity of the 90s shows (especially TNG and Enterprise) wasn't that great that is what they want a return to.

There is definitely a segment of "fans" who are upset that DIS doesn't depict cishet white guys as the default setting for the human race.

I'll say one thing for Matalas, the cognitive dissonance he created by just placing the WOK font over the FC theme is quite remarkable.

Not gonna lie, it bugged me! :rommie:
 
A big part of Picard's ethos and storylines for the past 35 years is that he doesn't want a family and him coming to terms with being the last Picard. The shows and movies have gone over and over this. You claim canon is extremely important to you yet giving Picard a son messes up what they spent all those years building.
I don't have a problem with it because the season very much addresses his earlier attitudes, and shows how meeting Jack changes his mind and is the climax for the finale. I'm not one of the people that wants TNG in stasis 20 years later.

Having nuance and positive energy is not characterization. Lots of people make a good first impression and have positive energy. The doctor had positive energy and made a good first impression. Did she have a great characterization also? What exactly do we know about Sidney that makes her such a great character? Cause it's basically nothing after ten episodes. And again, I liked her! I'd be happy to see her again, but they gave her basically nothing character wise outside of crushing on Jack and beefing with Geordi. That's not good character world.
She's listed as a guest star. She overperforms what she was hired to do. Within those confines I think she's a great character and would like to see more of her. And yes, Dr Ohk is great as well.

Same. They are TV shows. It's why I can watch an episode of SNW followed by an episode of TOS and have no problem believing it's the same ship with many of the same characters. I don't have to wonder why the ship looks different. I don't even give it a second thought. It looks different because one was made in 2022 and the other in 1966.
But it's not just the way the ship looks, the Discoprise has technology the Enterprise-D didn't have over 100 years later. And they can't even bother to keep continuity with what happened in DISCOVERY. So if what they do doesn't matter, and I can't stand the tone of the show anyway, why keep watching SNW? Unlike with Terry Matalas, I'm not a fan of any of Henry Alonso Myers' past work (minus his brief stay on CHUCK at the beginning of his career) so have no reason to stick around expecting something better.

Terry worked for Picard for well over a year as co-showrunner before season 2 started filming. He had a major part of developing the season and has said the major story ideas (minus Picard's mom) were his ideas - including spending all season in the past which people hated. Yvette's mental illness and suicide was Akiva. We really don't know when Terry left to work on season 3 but considering most of the season 2 and 3 writers are the same I would think it was after season 2 was already broken down and written and then they started working on season 3 when season 2 was in production.
But the difference is Terry was the sole showrunner for season 3, and Goldsman always outranked him in season 2. The main difference between the seasons is Goldsman being in one and gone from another. Imagine your boss's boss changes at work. The new guy is far better than the old guy... if you were weighed down by bad policies, and suddenly those cleared out, would your final work product improve?

You know with absolutely certainly that had it been Discovery doing these things, they would be eviscerated by certain fans.
DISCOVERY is built on a foundation of bad decisions atop bad decisions. It would be just another eye roll in that department. They had their chance to reset after season 1... instead they made a worse season. They had another chance to reset after season 2, but instead completely botched their far future. I've dropped that show as of the beginning of its third season, and see no reason to give it yet another chance. I won't feed their viewing numbers further by hate watching it.

PIC S3 is certainly a big win ratings-wise, but ST wasn't losing before then. It was doing fine.
As the critics of the Canadian charts guy kept pointing out, we have no reliable source data for prior ratings. And those earlier efforts proved divisive with fans and resulted in mixed critical reception.

Maybe, but DIS, SNW, and PIC S1-2 did not move too far away from being ST.
Season 2 wasn't too bad. The others did move too far for me.

We already had that in Star Trek Beyond, Star Trek: Discovery, Star Trek: Picard Season One, Star Trek: Lower Decks, and Star Trek: Prodigy.
For you, maybe.

I've always qualified my criticism of NuTrek with "live action". PRODIGY is far better than I'd expect for it to be. STLD has some incredibly bad early episodes, but by the middle of its second season, the episodes are consistently good. But again, that series can't be treated as strictly canon.
 
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We really don't know when Terry left to work on season 3 but considering most of the season 2 and 3 writers are the same I would think it was after season 2 was already broken down and written and then they started working on season 3 when season 2 was in production.

In an interview with trekmovie.com he said that he left season 2 after the early episodes to fully concentrate on season 3. He also said that he wanted to tell a more ambitious time travel story (which is his thing) but the other writers objected. He was clearly not in charge of season 2. The final result was a compromise that was also limited by time, budget and Covid.
 
Most of the negative comments about season 3 are more that people seem threatened by its popularity and what that might mean for their favorite version of Star Trek in the future, and the implications for the decisions that have been made on the other shows than just enjoying a TV show for being a TV show.

There's an irony to that concern given that is the justification frequently given for the loud hate towards other seasons of modern Trek - ie. that it's not "their" Trek, and they want it to be more like what they perceive Trek to be. Indeed, some are taking credit for the direction of S3 as being the product of their hate for previous seasons.

The problem with a lot of the comments about season 3, for me, is that its detractors don't so much argue how it's narratively worse than any other season of Star Trek.

It's not the worst season, but is it drastically better as the reaction from some might suggest? A secret son to beloved legacy characters, with magic powers and connections drawn out through an elongated mystery box, the abrupt killing of other legacy characters, all culminating in a starship flitting around like the Millennium Falcon and a solution through the power of love? If this was the Disco crew and not TNG, people would be kicking the absolute hell out of it.

I'd say it's a mid-range season. It's not awful, and as a one-off it served its place as an indulgent farewell to a crew (though I found the level of indulgence grating by the end), but I certainly don't see it as a basis to hand the reigns to the showrunner. Without the figleaf of it being a full TNG reunion, I don't think anything of similar quality will be nearly as well-received.
 
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This misses every single point of discourse. Unfortunate and disappointing.

Discourse is pointless when it ultimately doesn't make a difference to either person in the conversation.

Circular arguments are a waste of time, especially since (like I said earlier) any few detractors on this board really make no difference in the big picture.

The season did everything that they wanted it to do. It could hopefully lead to more if the fans continue to be loud for it.

So what's the point of circular discourse now?

The only way I got through season 1 was taking notes and trying to process everything I was viewing. 15 pages... if you want them:brickwall::wah:
.

Haha. I'll pass on that.
 
I watched every episode of Picard, but now that it's done, I have no desire to ever watch any of them ever again. Contrast this with TNG—I've watched dozens of episodes multiple times since the series ended in 1994 and will continue to do so.
 
So what's the point of circular discourse now?
Well, hopefully to learn something about each other and to increase understanding of other points of view.

In the "big picture " Star Trek " means very little so I suppose this whole thing is meaninglessness.
 
Okay, I'll bite...what is it?

Mind you I've watched all of TNG countless times and SNW and I don't see anything in particular that the Enterprise in SNW/Discovery has that the Enterprise-D didnt

Holograms? Which the D does have in early episodes.
 
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