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Design the Next Enterprise

With respect to DFScott, its probably a bit late in the game to be changing things that drastically. Keep in mind its supposed to be evolutionary, not revolutionary.

I mean, if you're creating a new scratch ship, go nuts and rethink everything, but for polishing up his winning ship? Not so much.



Dac: I like it. All of the extra sensor packages and such down there would be useful when not separated certainly, as auxiliary or supplementary systems for science-type missions with a heavy workload (anyone who has read the Titan novels might recall that there is such a thing in the yacht under the saucer on the Titan - they were charting a dense sector of stellar debris or something)
 
Tiberion, I hope you realize that everything I do from here on out is for my own enjoyment. Nothing I do art wise has any bearing on Cryptics design. The only artwork they own is the original sketch and all the artwork that follows from me is moot as they cannot use it since they would have to legally obtain the use of it which means lawyers and money. Now as for the thoughts DF had they are intriguing and I am mulling them over. Now for the time being, I did a quick stretch and pull on the original side view I did to make the lines a little sleeker. Not quite sure if I like it yet. Oh and yes I am having a little fun with this, hence the borders and such. Also the Class name on the drawing is nothing more but a bit of tongue in cheek. (If you don't get it, look it up on google)

compareu.jpg
 
As for the shuttlebay, functionally a front shuttle bay is a good and bad in my opinion. If a starship is traveling in a forward direction at say full impulse and wants to launch a shuttle, the shuttle will have to accelerate to a speed faster than full impulse even with the inertia gained by traveling at the same speed as the the ship to get a safe navigating distance.
as an aside, it doesn't quite work like that. the ship, unless it is also accelerating, is always at rest in its own frame of reference, so accelerating away from it is always the same. you don't need to account for the ship's velocity any more than you need to account for the galaxy's velocity through space.

what does perhaps matter is whether we usually want a shuttle moving faster than the ship or not, relative to something else. since a primary use of a shuttle seems to be reaching the surface of a planet, which is generally moving slower, and presuming that the ship tends to be oriented forward in orbit, then it makes sense to have the shuttle bay at the rear of the ship, so that as the shuttle accelerates away from the ship, its naturally declerating in the planet's frame of reference and breaks orbit towards the surface.

there may be other considerations, of course. since starship battles seem to be head-to-head confrontations, having a shuttle bay at the rear of the ship keeps an approaching shuttle out of the line of fire, and provides the full bulk of the ship and its shields to protect the smaller shuttle.
 
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Tiberion, I hope you realize that everything I do from here on out is for my own enjoyment. Nothing I do art wise has any bearing on Cryptics design. The only artwork they own is the original sketch and all the artwork that follows from me is moot as they cannot use it since they would have to legally obtain the use of it which means lawyers and money. Now as for the thoughts DF had they are intriguing and I am mulling them over. Now for the time being, I did a quick stretch and pull on the original side view I did to make the lines a little sleeker. Not quite sure if I like it yet. Oh and yes I am having a little fun with this, hence the borders and such. Also the Class name on the drawing is nothing more but a bit of tongue in cheek. (If you don't get it, look it up on google)

compareu.jpg

This art is very good and shows that the Enterprise F seems to have either thicker hull plating or just more Armour on the hull which is a good thing :) :techman:
 
That latest concept makes me wonder if the hulls couldn't attach at some point near the back of the saucer without destroying the illusion of the ring being the support. No actual neck, just a bit of a kiss for the turbolifts to travel through. As long as you're drifting away from/refining the form of the original sketch, might be worth a sketch or two.

New nacelles still feel a little off from the rest of the design, at least the front half. Can't say I can quite figure why though. A little too simple perhaps, and I've never been a big fan of pointy bussards/caps, which always bring to mind an over-excited dog.

I get the feeling I'm going to prefer your design over Cryptic's, since they seem to be very much going in a 'safer' direction.
 
Making distinct, interesting, and appropriate nacelles is always the hardest part for me. I never feel fully successful.
Remember, the nacelle is just an enclosure. It's what's INSIDE of the nacelle that matters.

So... granted that all of this is "technobabble magic"... you should think about what "guts" the nacelle holds.

If it's the same basic set of components as prior ships have had... there's very little reason to make it all that different from what we've seen before.

Avoid making "kewl swoopy shapes" and "french curve arcs" unless there's some reason, in your mind, for doing so.

Remember that the simplest shapes are, in fact, the most mechanically sound. Cylinders are better, from a stress-handling basis, than box-beams, just for example... but box-beams are better than I-beams (but harder to manufacture).

The best shape, all other matters being equal, is the sphere, from a mechanical standpoint. Sharp corners are generally something to be avoided, unless they serve some specific purpose.

Make sense?

I don't think you should get too worked up about making the nacelle "look different" unless you have a well-thought-out reason.

One other thing... it's generally a good idea (though this has been deviated from more than once, on-screen) to try to have your warp engine innards be symmetrical, both left-to-right but also top-to-bottom. The NACELLE can be assymetrical, easily enough, as long as the field-generation elements are, inside. Symmetrical energy fields are always more stable than assymetrical ones, and are thus easier to manage and control.

***

EDIT: Of course, after reading DF's great (if still a bit... well, hard to visualize?) suggestion... again, I would worry less about the exterior appearance than the "functional guts" but he gives some really good suggestions about why those guts might be different!
 
Andrew, I would love any advice or critique you could give now and then.
Adam
I've been staying out of these latest exchanges,... more interested in hearing what people have to say: likes/dislikes, etc. But since you asked...my advice would be to refine the orthos you posted on ImageShack. I thought there were some some nice things going on there... the nacelles and overall proportions of the ship and I like the 'separated' ancillary drawing too. Any front/back views available yet?

As for a crit... I'd suggest downsizing the engineering section a bit, lowering it's top areas in the process. That would provide a curved bottom to answer to the curved top of the saucer. Also, play with extending the warp pylons down to wrap below the hull dividing line... kind of like your original double-dorsals, providing more continuity with the up-sweeping 'ring'.

I'm still fascinated with that warp ring idea and how to blend it into the overall design a little better... and am, in fact, even playing with it myself now.

We never stop learning-
Andrew-

I actually have found myself thinking about that as well. I think the best solution that I've thought up thus far would be having the ring mounted by the center, as opposed to the top. The top of the ring would stay visible as a sort of 'rollbar', while the bottom would stay snugly flush around the main deflector assembly area.

The saucer section would slide straight out when it separates.

About the only problem with this is that it would take quite a bit of trial and error to both make it look good while also keeping the dual necks. One idea that I've come up with is making the ring pyramid shaped, but the three sides would be rounded. Two of the sides would come down as a rounded V-shape, similar to the shape of the Sabre-class's deflector. Doing so would make the engineering section's hull inherently thinner than the saucer section, and would help proportion wise.

I would be happy to make some sketches if either of you are interested.
 
Tiberion, I hope you realize that everything I do from here on out is for my own enjoyment. Nothing I do art wise has any bearing on Cryptics design. The only artwork they own is the original sketch and all the artwork that follows from me is moot as they cannot use it since they would have to legally obtain the use of it which means lawyers and money.

No no, I understand that, but the more you diverge from the original sketch (which the "official" E-F is based on, the less it remains "an Enterprise"

So radically altering what you have for a new ship makes sense, I would want to see what you come up with. But calling it "Ihle's Enterprise F" at that point wouldn't make as much sense.

If it were me, and I wanted to play with some radical ideas, I'd spawn a sister ship (think Nebula/Miranda) of your E-F and go to town. But thats just me. :)


By the way, legal gray area here; Any work derived from that image that they own (your sketch) would *possibly* still fall under their ownership as well, given the language in their contract. Its a murky situation, and the side with the most lawyers probably wins. But, you're probably fine so long as you aren't trying to profit commercially from the design. Just a little FYI**

** (Not a lawyer, and I did sleep through a lot of Contract/Copyright law in business school, so your mileage may vary)
 
Remember, the nacelle is just an enclosure. It's what's INSIDE of the nacelle that matters.

So... granted that all of this is "technobabble magic"... you should think about what "guts" the nacelle holds.

If it's the same basic set of components as prior ships have had... there's very little reason to make it all that different from what we've seen before.

Avoid making "kewl swoopy shapes" and "french curve arcs" unless there's some reason, in your mind, for doing so.

Remember that the simplest shapes are, in fact, the most mechanically sound. Cylinders are better, from a stress-handling basis, than box-beams, just for example... but box-beams are better than I-beams (but harder to manufacture).

The best shape, all other matters being equal, is the sphere, from a mechanical standpoint. Sharp corners are generally something to be avoided, unless they serve some specific purpose.

Make sense?

I don't think you should get too worked up about making the nacelle "look different" unless you have a well-thought-out reason.

One other thing... it's generally a good idea (though this has been deviated from more than once, on-screen) to try to have your warp engine innards be symmetrical, both left-to-right but also top-to-bottom. The NACELLE can be assymetrical, easily enough, as long as the field-generation elements are, inside. Symmetrical energy fields are always more stable than assymetrical ones, and are thus easier to manage and control.

***

EDIT: Of course, after reading DF's great (if still a bit... well, hard to visualize?) suggestion... again, I would worry less about the exterior appearance than the "functional guts" but he gives some really good suggestions about why those guts might be different!

Oh yes, agreed on all of that. I personally prefer nacelles to look purposeful, but that still doesn't preclude having the outer enclosure match the style of the ship. After all, nearly every canon design (barring kitbashes) we have seen has had distinctly unique nacelles. Just compare Ent, Ent-A, Excelsior, Akira, Ent-D, Ent-E, Grissom, Voyager, Defiant - all fairly unique.
 
Something for storytelling purposes. Nothing says there even has to be humans in the secondary hull. This ship could be a design from Section 31. No one has ever been in that hull. An emergency tube is placed there for repairs, and a the chief engineer grouses about automation. When the saucer crew actually gains acess to their own secondary hull for the very first time--they are shocked...fill in the rest.

Having a strange membrane veiled across the hoop opening up front.

There are plenty of ways this very design can become a mystery--and a selling point for you to be more involved in STO storytelling even...
 
^He's not involved with STO at all. They have pretty much just taken his original sketch and run with it.

And yeah, that might be an interesting storyline, but it doesn't fit with a ship named Enterprise.
 
Okay, so I stumbled into something that made me want to send myself back to art school.

Well, I grew up in one. And I remember learning about the sculptor Henry Moore, who said, "We distort form to create space." He created objects that were, in terms of archetype, clearly based on people. Yet they weren't made up of heads and bones and muscles. They were images that fit the space but did something different.

Last night, I wrestled with my own description, realizing that this shape that floats majestically in my head like a Henry Moore sculpture is, um, very difficult to draw. So I took my own medicine, borrowing from my suggestion to Adam that he make a model out of household items. I took some posterboard, made a cylinder, and drew the outline of the shape around it so that I could understand it better dimensionally.

The latest result is hot off the presses:

110604_EntF_EngineRing.jpg


You're looking at just the engine enclosure, which would wrap around Adam's existing two hulls. The rest of Adam's ship is not pictured here. The open ring formed by the engine enclosure that is pictured here, is slightly wider than the closed ring (that would be in front of it) that wraps the habitable area of the ship. The outside is completely smooth and unhindered, like the surface of an aluminum can. It's one single curve from top to bottom and top again. Insignias or license plate numbers or whatever can be anodized to the outside.

And while it's a completely different shape, from the side view and the top view, they actually provide very familiar silhouettes. The resulting form doesn't cease to say "Enterprise;" it's still iconic. Henry Moore did this all the time: make wild, weird forms that suddenly, from only one or two viewing angles, looked like a madonna and child.

All the inner workings are in the interior. You see my two copper "Bussard surfaces" extending from flaps folding down from the top. The mechanism of the engines may conceivably extend into the ring area; it doesn't all have to be in the long fins.

On the underside, each of the fins provides a canopy for the leaner, meaner "warp driveshaft." Now, some may ask me, why not enclose these mechanisms in neat little cylinders like everyone else does? First of all, I tend to treat "what everyone else does" as a big "Do Not Enter" sign. Second, is there some reason why everything must be encased in an ugly coffin?

What's more: Adam's primary and secondary hull epiphany creates a usable space in the center of the ship. Why ruin that space with a tangle of pylons?

Notice the "interior lighting." Imagine a similar light array on the spine of the secondary hull. The result would be a kind of mobile drydock, a tunnel where shuttles could enter and exit from either approach vector.

Now, Ihlecreations, you may use all of this design or part of it or none of it (I may take this idea forward in any event with a non-Enterprise design), but if you take anything away from this suggestion, I hope it's this: No single part of any creation coming from you should be perfunctory, like the obligatory nacelle caps or the mandatory rear brake lights or the traditional sofa cushion. When I imagine you building great 3D forms for theme parks, I see you observing everything from every angle to make sure it's expressive and wild and fun, and that there's artistry in every stroke. I see you taking pride in that, and watching kids delight as their imaginations wrap themselves around your work. If this Enterprise truly represents you, then make it kick, from every conceivable angle, so that we're awestruck. You can't strike awe with a couple of coffins on planks.

DF "Assimilate This!" Scott
 
Okay, now I definitely want to put some ideas I have on paper, so unless Ilhecreations politely declines me permission to play around a little with his design, that is exactly what I'm going to do. Hopefully, I'll have something to post tomorrow.
 
Okay, so I stumbled into something that made me want to send myself back to art school.

Well, I grew up in one. And I remember learning about the sculptor Henry Moore, who said, "We distort form to create space." He created objects that were, in terms of archetype, clearly based on people. Yet they weren't made up of heads and bones and muscles. They were images that fit the space but did something different.

Last night, I wrestled with my own description, realizing that this shape that floats majestically in my head like a Henry Moore sculpture is, um, very difficult to draw. So I took my own medicine, borrowing from my suggestion to Adam that he make a model out of household items. I took some posterboard, made a cylinder, and drew the outline of the shape around it so that I could understand it better dimensionally.

The latest result is hot off the presses:

110604_EntF_EngineRing.jpg


You're looking at just the engine enclosure, which would wrap around Adam's existing two hulls. The rest of Adam's ship is not pictured here. The open ring formed by the engine enclosure that is pictured here, is slightly wider than the closed ring (that would be in front of it) that wraps the habitable area of the ship. The outside is completely smooth and unhindered, like the surface of an aluminum can. It's one single curve from top to bottom and top again. Insignias or license plate numbers or whatever can be anodized to the outside.

And while it's a completely different shape, from the side view and the top view, they actually provide very familiar silhouettes. The resulting form doesn't cease to say "Enterprise;" it's still iconic. Henry Moore did this all the time: make wild, weird forms that suddenly, from only one or two viewing angles, looked like a madonna and child.

All the inner workings are in the interior. You see my two copper "Bussard surfaces" extending from flaps folding down from the top. The mechanism of the engines may conceivably extend into the ring area; it doesn't all have to be in the long fins.

On the underside, each of the fins provides a canopy for the leaner, meaner "warp driveshaft." Now, some may ask me, why not enclose these mechanisms in neat little cylinders like everyone else does? First of all, I tend to treat "what everyone else does" as a big "Do Not Enter" sign. Second, is there some reason why everything must be encased in an ugly coffin?

What's more: Adam's primary and secondary hull epiphany creates a usable space in the center of the ship. Why ruin that space with a tangle of pylons?

Notice the "interior lighting." Imagine a similar light array on the spine of the secondary hull. The result would be a kind of mobile drydock, a tunnel where shuttles could enter and exit from either approach vector.

Now, Ihlecreations, you may use all of this design or part of it or none of it (I may take this idea forward in any event with a non-Enterprise design), but if you take anything away from this suggestion, I hope it's this: No single part of any creation coming from you should be perfunctory, like the obligatory nacelle caps or the mandatory rear brake lights or the traditional sofa cushion. When I imagine you building great 3D forms for theme parks, I see you observing everything from every angle to make sure it's expressive and wild and fun, and that there's artistry in every stroke. I see you taking pride in that, and watching kids delight as their imaginations wrap themselves around your work. If this Enterprise truly represents you, then make it kick, from every conceivable angle, so that we're awestruck. You can't strike awe with a couple of coffins on planks.

DF "Assimilate This!" Scott
I am definitely "diggin" that...

Very "trekkish" while still being a distinctly different approach. The trick, I think, is to ensure that it doesn't just look like a different package for the same old bits, but is in fact clearly a different system.

I'm intrigued!
 
5809685390_9f7592251a_b.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40445677@N06/580968539/in/photostream

This is my idea for the warp/slip ring of the Cetea. My goal here was to help make both of the sections look good while separated, so in this case, rather than mounting the ring by the top, I instead mounted it by the middle, sort of like Vulcan vessels. I imagine the top part of the ring resembling a spoiler or roll-bar.

I envision both sections separating from one another by the ring sliding off the front of the secondary hull, similar to how a ring slides off of a finger. I also imagine that the points where the ring slides into the secondary hull blends in seamlessly with the hull plating/deflector grid.

I know that my idea could still use a lot of refinement, but I hope that it is worth something. Anyways, I hope that you like my idea Ihlecreations!:D

What do you think, want me to continue with some more sketches?
 
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