Could ENT's Xindi inhabit the TOS Universe?

[Dukhat]

I don't think this was ever made clear in the show, but I'm guessing the prevailing theory is #1. That, or Daniels was the one from a different universe and he had his facts wrong.

You're overlooking that Daniels was an agent attempting to destroy the timeline, while Future Guy through his Suliban clients were doing their level best to save Archer, the Enterprise, and the course of history.

Apparently I am, because I have no idea what you're talking about. Granted I stopped watching ENT in the third season and only picked it back up again after the fourth. The last thing I remembered was that Daniels was helping Archer and FutureGuy was the bad guy.

 

[BillJ]

Apparently I am, because I have no idea what you're talking about. Granted I stopped watching ENT in the third season and only picked it back up again after the fourth. The last thing I remembered was that Daniels was helping Archer and FutureGuy was the bad guy.

I don't think the writers even knew who the good and bad guys were or where the story was ultimately headed.

It wasn't well thought out.

 

[PCz911]

For better or for worse, ENTERPRISE is part of TOS's "official" backstory these days....

I don't know what this means (other than its implied invocation of "canon"). The pronouncements of a Paramount exec, or Rick Berman, or JJ Abrams, or Gene Rodenberry don't change the work itself.

...what is considered by the current rights-owners as "official".

).

As I see it... It's a bunch of ret con going on.

Question: who does decide "canon"? Is it the current rights owners who decree canon? Is it some mysterious board? Or it is someone/something else?

 

[Nebusj]

I don't think this was ever made clear in the show, but I'm guessing the prevailing theory is #1. That, or Daniels was the one from a different universe and he had his facts wrong.

You're overlooking that Daniels was an agent attempting to destroy the timeline, while Future Guy through his Suliban clients were doing their level best to save Archer, the Enterprise, and the course of history.

Apparently I am, because I have no idea what you're talking about. Granted I stopped watching ENT in the third season and only picked it back up again after the fourth. The last thing I remembered was that Daniels was helping Archer and FutureGuy was the bad guy.

It is a Fan Theory, and for that matter my own Fan Theory, and as such it goes against what the obvious reading of the text is, and goes against what the creators obviously meant.

However ... if you go through the Temporal Cold War episodes, the Suliban sure did a lot more towards keeping Archer alive and intact and in possession of favors he could call in later on than did Daniels.

While that surely reflects the attempt by the show-runnrs to create a deep mystery and a morally ambiguous backdrop, the effect is to notice that the Suliban are the ones who actually pulled some fuse or something that kept the Enterprise from getting blown up by an ion storm, and Daniels gave weak-tea excuses about how he couldn't warn the Death Ball Of Death from launching even though he had a Time Phone.

 

[Greg Cox]

Any battles with the Romulan's mentioned? Nope. about when meeting Q any references to Squire of goths, race from Charlie x or the Organians? Nope. after finding people from the the past in cry freeze did anyone mention Khan? Heck any references to Kirk stealing a cloaking device in Pegasus?

Heck, despite a zillion episodes dealing with Data and Lore and the implications of artificial intelligence, nobody ever mentions the androids in "What Are Little Girls Of?" or "I, Mudd." And why did the Doctor never mention the holographic chick in "That Which Survives"?

And, for the record, I've just gone another day without mentioning Miles Standish or the Mayflower, even though I'm still living on Thanksgiving leftovers . . .

 

[CorporalCaptain]

And, for the record, I've just gone another day without mentioning Miles Standish or the Mayflower

.... till now, Greg Cox .... till now ....

Bwahahahaha!

 

[Shawnster]

As for the Xindi attack . . . certainly, it was a major historical event that Kirk and Spock had surely studied. But, again, how often does one mention the Napoleonic Wars in everyday life these days? Or the War of 1812 or even the French Revolution?)

I did a search. Napoleon is mentioned 200 times on this discussion board. http://www.trekbbs.com/search.php?searchid=8605666

Believe it or not, I sometimes go months without mentioning Paul Revere, Oliver Cromwell, Douglas MacArthur, and/or the Boxer Rebellion in casual conversation.

And, for the record, I've just gone another day without mentioning Miles Standish or the Mayflower, even though I'm still living on Thanksgiving leftovers . . .

And yet, you guys just mentioned these people and events you say you go months without mentioning. Guess you better start over on that count.

 

[Drone]

It's a rather stupid point. Most of trek isn't about referencing the past events. I mean its tiny fraction of less then 1 tenth of a percent of dialogue being about past historical events.

For that matter how many things like the Doomsday machine for the giant ameba ever got referenced. both of them caused destruction within the federation of a scale far greater then what the Xindi did.

I mean the first season of Enterprise spans more then 100 years separating it and the first season of TOS, and TNG is what 98 years after the first season of TOS (at least per the chronology). I mean outside of events or person who are related to TOS characters or plots, when did the events in Kirk's time get mentioned? Also remembered we got more then twice as many episodes of TNG to make any such references.

Any battles with the Romulan's mentioned? Nope. about when meeting Q any references to Squire of goths, race from Charlie x or the Organians? Nope. after finding people from the the past in cry freeze did anyone mention Khan? Heck any references to Kirk stealing a cloaking device in Pegasus?

Heck how often did DS9 or VOY reference TNG, when similar and that was occurring or occurring just a few years after the end of the 1701-D's career.

As to the point of why anyone's even discussing this, I thought it was an accepted precept around here, that any and all minutiae is common grist for the mill. I can certainly think of a lot more unremarkable topics that have been talked about and repeatedly as well. By the way, Voyager referenced TNG a number of times, mostly about Picard or Data.

I don't think this was ever made clear in the show, but I'm guessing the prevailing theory is #1. That, or Daniels was the one from a different universe and he had his facts wrong.

You're overlooking that Daniels was an agent attempting to destroy the timeline, while Future Guy through his Suliban clients were doing their level best to save Archer, the Enterprise, and the course of history.

Apparently I am, because I have no idea what you're talking about. Granted I stopped watching ENT in the third season and only picked it back up again after the fourth. The last thing I remembered was that Daniels was helping Archer and FutureGuy was the bad guy.

I'm with you. Daniels had strict protocols to follow, if we believe his story at all, so I don't think he was as quite at his ease to help Archer directly as Future Guy appeared to be doing. It seems pretty clear that whatever nominally positive, or greater, things that Future Guy did for Enterprise's benefit were just in service to an ultimate goal that definitely wasn't. One can also claim that Daniels did more than help Archer a little bit. If it weren't for his intervention, which may have in fact been outside his parameters to undertake, the truth of what happened to the Paraagan colony would not have been revealed( boy those helpful Suliban) and Enterprise and Starfleet's fledgling mission would almost certainly been set back a good long time through the Vulcans' insistence.

One thing though, I'm pretty sure that Daniels didn't tell Archer that the first Xindi attack on Earth was never recorded in history as having occurred. That's what he told him about the destruction of the Paraagan colony. Future Guy was the one that implied the Xindi's action took place because they were told of their supposed future fate at the hands of Earth, by another future faction.

 

[mswood]

Drone

I am well aware that both DS9 and Voyager referenced TNG, my point is that for the number of episodes they had, all three more then twice what TNG had, and in I think all three cases over 70 more then enterprise had. they have more material to reference, more time to make those references, and they are references events that could have taken place the same year to as much as 8 years after the time of TNG.

So factor out the differences in the amount of episodes that could be referenced, and the number of episodes they could be referenced, and factor in the difference between zero years to at most 14 I think, to that of over a hundred years.

i mean even better then comparing how many times TNG references TOS, since its less then a hundred years difference and the difference between ENT and TOS is over a hundred years,a t least internally by modern Trek productions reckoning. A better comparison would be how many times Deep Space referenced dos, and even better yet how many times Voyager referenced events from TOS.

now we do know that DS9 at the very least referenced events from TOS, with the characters of Kor, Koloth and Kang at least by using the existing names of characters created in toS in the same episodes those characters appeared. and certainly when dS( goes back in time to Trouble with tribbles references abound. but outside of those episodes that have direct connecting material of either characters or the cast interacting with those characters, How many times did dS9 reference TOS?

With Voyager outside of Laneway and Kim looking into the past events from Undiscovered country, still not part of any event from TOS, how often did voyager reference TOS. TOS which features the first use of a functional replica of a human in holographic form that its solid to the touch and capable of moving outside of a holodeck, might get some mention from the doctor you would think. heck while Voyager makes a couple references to tng facing the Borg, no mention either time of Picard successfully being disconnected (or even Lore for more Long term issues) from the collective, and how they would have crusher's references for surgically removing the borg tech and nano technology, considering they had to deal with that on more then one occasion.

Using voyager versus TOS is the closest time reference we would get to ENT to TOS. Then limit the references to say the first 100 episodes to see how many could be made.

Again the how point is that outside of events using the same race or characters Trek hasn't often referenced any similar type events, and the vast number of races that one series interacts with, especially over time, aren't mentioned again in later series. Even with modern Trek only a handful of major races get referenced between series. Typically species that are not based on one planets race, but races that have amassed many worlds. Though off course their are a handful of exceptions like the use of Bajor between TNG, DS9 and voyager. The possible reference of Tholia, we have no idea if they represent more then one star system (though in my mind it does, II don't think there is any true episode support to that, though I could be wrong).