Could ENT's Xindi inhabit the TOS Universe?

[CorporalCaptain]

King Philip

Who?

 

[Drone]

Uh, didn't Archer's efforts come to be seen as something memorable? I think that's how I recall it.

You watched ST:ENT. People in the Trek 23rd and 24th centuries apparently didn't, as nobody there remembers Archer's achievements.

Except perhaps Riker and Troi in "These Are the Voyages", but they are Starfleet. It's a bit like asking the average person of the street what he knows about Stephen Decatur and counting the "Huh?"s...

Well, then certainly it was memorable contemporaneously, at least to Starfleet and sundry others and from what we know, it could have remained as celebrated and venerated by that same cohort, if not the general population at some point later, as late as 2265 or so. Correct?

Given the razor thin margin in which the feat was accomplished, at least in that case it would seem that the disaster would've been considered as certain.

Only by those in the know, supposedly. Nobody but Archer's own crew would even have seen the space battle that prevented the Xindi Death Star from blowing up Earth.

So, you're saying that no observatories anywhere on Earth, let alone citizen scientists, would have had the opportunity to witness this event, at least at its conclusion when it was so close to its objective? if such images were captured, they would be everywhere immediately, and Starfleet or someone would be obliged to supply an explanation.

In the Trek universe, the general public would attribute the salvation of Earth to "Starfleet."

Most probably. Assuming Starfleet even chose to tell them that Earth had been in any danger in the first place! It might be not good for the mental health of mankind to be too aware of the fact that their lives hang on such a thin thread.

Timo Saloniemi

Wouldn't have the public everywhere likely already have been innured to this possibility by virtue of the first attack, despite of the relatively limited area targeted? I've not seen all of Enterprise, but many more of the episodes after that incident.
Was it ever referenced what the general population was given as to what had occurred? I think it would strain credibility if Starfleet, or whatever organization provided it, claimed some spin that it was anything other than what actually happened.

 

[Timo]

Well, then certainly it was memorable contemporaneously, at least to Starfleet and sundry others and from what we know, it could have remained as celebrated and venerated by that same cohort, if not the general population at some point later, as late as 2265 or so. Correct?

Theoretically, events from several centuries past might be remembered. But if we fail to see Jonathan Archer Day observed in the 23rd century (and we do), it's certainly not against human nature.

So, you're saying that no observatories anywhere on Earth, let alone citizen scientists, would have had the opportunity to witness this event, at least at its conclusion when it was so close to its objective?

Basically, yes. It does take an observatory to observe such nearly invisible things, and those tend to have a field of view narrow enough to miss anything and everything happening one arc-second off boresight.

Oh, flashes on the sky might have been seen on the night side (which the battle did not take place on). But the story behind those would remain unknown unless eventually published in papers or their futuro-equivalents.

Say, around where I live, it's quite ordinary to hear heavy gunfire: the military is constantly practicing with the big coastal guns (for whatever good that does in this day and age). It takes some listening to decide whether it's gunfire today, or thunder. But it doesn't occur to most people that an amphibious attack against us would be taking place.

if such images were captured, they would be everywhere immediately, and Starfleet or someone would be obliged to supply an explanation.

Hmm. The simplest would be "this is a Bellnet hoax". In the 22nd century, what sort of evidence would be immune to forgery?

Was it ever referenced what the general population was given as to what had occurred? I think it would strain credibility if Starfleet, or whatever organization provided it, claimed some spin that it was anything other than what actually happened.

Well, "Demons" has these two lines of interest:

Minister Samuels: "You haven't spent much time on Earth lately. After the Xindi attack, there was a dangerous increase in xenophobia."

and

Mayweather: "How have you been, Gannet?"
Reporter Brooks: "Busy. There haven't been many slow news days since the Xindi attack."

Whether the fuss would carry for a century, we just don't know. The thing remains that none of it is in evidence after that century.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Poltargyst]

I like ENT. In fact, I like it more than TNG. Having said that, though, there were often things in ENT that annoyed/disappointed me, and this whole Xindi arc fits that description. I don't particularly need any Xindi in my TOS, but it could be done if someone really wanted to.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Out of the trillions of people in the Federation and the thousands in Starfleet, we've seen less than a handfull. Given the scarcity of information, you can't really say how well know Archer, the NX01 and the Xindi War are 100 or 200 years after the event.

 

[Greg Cox]

For better or for worse, ENTERPRISE is part of TOS's "official" backstory these days, and it's easy enough to rationalize why the Xindi and other elements of the show weren't mentioned on TOS, aside from the obvious real-world explanation. I don't think we need an in-universe explanation. Space is big and so is the history of the galaxy. I'm sure Archer is in the history books, but that doesn't mean Kirk and Spock need to be dropping his name every few episodes.

Believe it or not, I sometimes go months without mentioning Paul Revere, Oliver Cromwell, Douglas MacArthur, and/or the Boxer Rebellion in casual conversation.

But I've certainly referenced Archer, Denobulans, and other elements of ENTERPRISE in my TOS novels, simply because they're part of the "Prime Timeline" these days, just like DS9 or VOYAGER or whatever.

 

[PCz911]

I like ENT. In fact, I like it more than TNG. Having said that, though, there were often things in ENT that annoyed/disappointed me, and this whole Xindi arc fits that description. I don't particularly need any Xindi in my TOS, but it could be done if someone really wanted to.

I wasn't a big fan of ENT, so I definitely don't need any of it in my TOS

 

[Nerys Myk]

Outside of the novels you won't find any.

 

[Drone]

Believe it or not, I sometimes go months without mentioning Paul Revere, Oliver Cromwell, Douglas MacArthur, and/or the Boxer Rebellion in casual conversation.

 

[Dukhat]

For better or for worse, ENTERPRISE is part of TOS's "official" backstory these days, and it's easy enough to rationalize why the Xindi and other elements of the show weren't mentioned on TOS, aside from the obvious real-world explanation.

Here's where it gets muddy for me, though. After the initial Xindi attack on Florida, Daniels made some comment to the effect of "this wasn't supposed to happen." So we can interpret his comment in one of two ways:

1. Everything up to this event was actually the regular, normal universe, and this event changed history to create what we call the "Prime" universe (which ironically is now an alternate universe from the regular one), or

2. Everything up to this event was actually the "Prime" universe already, and this event changed history to create some other universe (just like in Star Trek '09). So everything after it did not take place in the TOS/TNG universe.

I don't think this was ever made clear in the show, but I'm guessing the prevailing theory is #1. That, or Daniels was the one from a different universe and he had his facts wrong.

The real issue for me is that the Xindi attack on Florida was a BIG DEAL. Not even the Romulan or Dominion war ever reached Earth AFAIK. And yet it or the Xindi were never mentioned at all in TOS and TNG (and yes, I know the real-world reason why. But this isn't about the real world.)

 

[Poltargyst]

For better or for worse, ENTERPRISE is part of TOS's "official" backstory these days, and it's easy enough to rationalize why the Xindi and other elements of the show weren't mentioned on TOS, aside from the obvious real-world explanation. I don't think we need an in-universe explanation. Space is big and so is the history of the galaxy. I'm sure Archer is in the history books, but that doesn't mean Kirk and Spock need to be dropping his name every few episodes.

Believe it or not, I sometimes go months without mentioning Paul Revere, Oliver Cromwell, Douglas MacArthur, and/or the Boxer Rebellion in casual conversation.

But I've certainly referenced Archer, Denobulans, and other elements of ENTERPRISE in my TOS novels, simply because they're part of the "Prime Timeline" these days, just like DS9 or VOYAGER or whatever.

I'm trying to remember if Kirk or Spock ever mentioned Zephram Cochran other than in Metamorphosis.

 

[Greg Cox]

For better or for worse, ENTERPRISE is part of TOS's "official" backstory these days, and it's easy enough to rationalize why the Xindi and other elements of the show weren't mentioned on TOS, aside from the obvious real-world explanation. I don't think we need an in-universe explanation. Space is big and so is the history of the galaxy. I'm sure Archer is in the history books, but that doesn't mean Kirk and Spock need to be dropping his name every few episodes.

Believe it or not, I sometimes go months without mentioning Paul Revere, Oliver Cromwell, Douglas MacArthur, and/or the Boxer Rebellion in casual conversation.

But I've certainly referenced Archer, Denobulans, and other elements of ENTERPRISE in my TOS novels, simply because they're part of the "Prime Timeline" these days, just like DS9 or VOYAGER or whatever.

I'm trying to remember if Kirk or Spock ever mentioned Zephram Cochran other than in Metamorphosis.

Not that I recall. TOS made up "historical" stuff as they needed it and usually never mentioned it again. As I recall, Khan and the Eugenics Wars were only mentioned in "Space Seed"--and never again until "The Wrath of Khan." Ditto for Captain Garth, Doctor Daystrom, Kodos the Executioner, Colonel Green, and other "celebrated" figures who were only mentioned in the episodes in which they appeared.

As for the Xindi attack . . . certainly, it was a major historical event that Kirk and Spock had surely studied. But, again, how often does one mention the Napoleonic Wars in everyday life these days? Or the War of 1812 or even the French Revolution?

It's not that such events are forgotten, but, you know, I'll bet most of us got through Thanksgiving dinner without ever discussing the Battle of Waterloo or the Trojan War with our relatives . . . . .

(Okay, we did discuss the Empire's attack on the ice planet of Hoth, and debate Lizzie Borden's innocence, but what family doesn't?)

 

[Nerys Myk]

That was his first mention and probably the only one in TOS

C

 

[Nebusj]

I don't think this was ever made clear in the show, but I'm guessing the prevailing theory is #1. That, or Daniels was the one from a different universe and he had his facts wrong.

You're overlooking that Daniels was an agent attempting to destroy the timeline, while Future Guy through his Suliban clients were doing their level best to save Archer, the Enterprise, and the course of history.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Daniels, like Future Guy, only came from a possible future (from ENT/TOS' perspective). What either of those two says is supposed to happen is not necessarily what is supposed to happen.

Or, to put it more generally, there's no reason to believe a word either of them say. Even if Daniels said the Xindi attack wasn't supposed to happen, why take him at his word? Think about it.

 

[Timo]

The real issue for me is that the Xindi attack on Florida was a BIG DEAL. Not even the Romulan or Dominion war ever reached Earth AFAIK.

The bigger issue is that big deals are a dime in a dozen. Two Armageddon-level attacks reached Earth on Kirk's watch alone (V'Ger and Whale Probe), essentially within a single decade. Several more were close to accomplishing that on Kirk's previous watch. A giant statistical fluke, or observer bias?

I'm sure we'd still take sides on King Philip's War and play the Last Mohican on the back yards to the death if that were the only war in the history of the United States...

A mediumweight issue is that these big deals seldom make much difference. The first Xindi attack and the Whale Probe killed millions. And stopped there. The second Xindi attack never amounted to anything, and all the talk in "Demons" still allows us to think nobody even heard about it; V'Ger did little damage, either. An end of the world averted is close to a non-event in practice. Or else we'd be talking a lot more about one Curtis LeMay.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[A beaker full of death]

For better or for worse, ENTERPRISE is part of TOS's "official" backstory these days....

I don't know what this means (other than its implied invocation of "canon"). TOS was a fait accompli in 1969. Hell, arguably, each episode is its own show. The pronouncements of a Paramount exec, or Rick Berman, or JJ Abrams, or Gene Rodenberry don't change the work itself.

I've never understood the need so many have to hammer together so many different pieces of work because they've been told it all fits together into the same canon.

Sure, it's kind of a giggle to see Sisko interact with Captain Kirk, but it does not change The Trouble With Tribbles. That puppy was in the can before most people on this board were born.

Now, Mr. Cox, I understand that as a writer within that universe you do indeed need to concern yourself with what is considered by the current rights-owners as "official".

But that is your artwork. It is not the work of the TOS artists (who had their own suits to deal with).

 

[Timo]

TOS was a fait accompli in 1969. Hell, arguably, each episode is its own show.

Hmm. Put together, these two assertions basically mean there's nothing about TOS that would bracket it to the 78-79 episodes aired. Stuff from before, after, left field, parallel dimensions and competing organizations would fit in just dandy, all adding to the done deal but never qualifying as the final nail.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Rahul]

Well, Daniels said "In the future, there are Xindi serving in Starfleet".

He never said the Xindi joined the Federation.

They may just be remnants of a perished civilisation, with their homeworlds and once glorious empire lost, now interstellar refugees, scattered on different worlds, living as outsiders on planets of others. Like the Suliban were (supposed to be) in the timeframe of ENT.

As I see it:

- in the end of the 3rd season, Earth is saved, but the Xindi are left in the middle of a civil war
- their "subspace vortex" FTL-drive was superior to current Starfleet warp drive. In the Delphic Expanse. Where rifts in space and time happen a lot. Perhaps it's entirely useless after the destruction of the spheres?
- the Xindi attack on earth was BIG. But only a few years later, the Earth-Romulan war happened! Something that's nott just a single event. But probably years of fear, food rations, and the glooming possibilities of total annhilation if "our" side loses. Despite having probably less casualties, the news coverage for that was probably a bit more intense... It's like WWI and WWII, with everyone only mentioning the second one all the time
- It's well established the Xindi's homeworld was destroyed. They built an Empire with the help of the sphere builders, but after the Delphic Expanse dissolved, and the different fractions started fighting again, they are now just a very minor player in the galaxy, with many members scattered in other planets

I just assume that there is a sister ship of the Enterprise 1701 flying around, with a Xindi reptile at the helm, who is this' crews "alien warrior from a once glorious species"

 

[mswood]

It's a rather stupid point. Most of trek isn't about referencing the past events. I mean its tiny fraction of less then 1 tenth of a percent of dialogue being about past historical events.

For that matter how many things like the Doomsday machine for the giant ameba ever got referenced. both of them caused destruction within the federation of a scale far greater then what the Xindi did.

I mean the first season of Enterprise spans more then 100 years separating it and the first season of TOS, and TNG is what 98 years after the first season of TOS (at least per the chronology). I mean outside of events or person who are related to TOS characters or plots, when did the events in Kirk's time get mentioned? Also remembered we got more then twice as many episodes of TNG to make any such references.

Any battles with the Romulan's mentioned? Nope. about when meeting Q any references to Squire of goths, race from Charlie x or the Organians? Nope. after finding people from the the past in cry freeze did anyone mention Khan? Heck any references to Kirk stealing a cloaking device in Pegasus?

Heck how often did DS9 or VOY reference TNG, when similar and that was occurring or occurring just a few years after the end of the 1701-D's career.

Heck how often did leaders of today reference in their daily jobs events from 100 years earlier?

More importantly as we also se brief moneys of the lives of the various crew during various mission, how much legitimate information and events must occur that we never see that must happen during each episode of trek? Who knows what does or doesn't transpire during that time.

It's literally ass stupid as people bitching about how Khan could know Chekov since he appeared in season one and Chekov didn't appear until season two.

Like Khan first was shown to be reading a ton about history and the ship, like Khan also didn't take over said ship, and like we got to see every single crew person Khan would have interacted with during the time he was aboard ship. And with chekov just because he didn't appear until season two we have no idea when the character actually starting service on the Enterprise. for all we know he could have been on the ship longer then McCoy, or Kirk, or Sulu, ect.

The point by the original poster is utterly without merit.