Chakotay and Seven Romance

[Drone]

C'mon. Even though she often repeated the same schtick over the four years, I think one can give her some credit for moving off center to some degree. See her relationship with Naomi, acceptance of Neelix (alright not human), learning to put up with Kim, pathos she showed in One Small Step, and a number of other examples, however slight.

Oh yeah, don't forget the scene that I may think is her most memorable of the series. Her look of incredulity and bare ability to keep from cracking up at the Doctor's confession to her in Renaissance Man!!!!!

 

[T'Arwen]

Chakotay and Seven pairing up didn't bother me in the slightest.

Consenting adults have the right to choose to be with whomever they want. People often choose those who others don't think are right for them. That's real life. I see this as an instance of that. If these characters like each other that way, then that's who they are.

The surprise aspect of not really seeing it coming is also akin to real life. It's really no one's business but there's, so why should anyone else see it coming?

Playing it that way, as something between Chakotay and Seven that only they understand, neatly torpedoes everyone else's interest in who Seven ends up with and makes her her own person. Doing things for her own personal reasons is a nice completion of her arc to become human again and an individual. I thought Seven covertly beaming into Chuckles' quarters was kinda cool. Clearly, that underscored the privacy angle.

So, I guess I really am in the minority!

But aren't we supposed to see things about people in fiction that are normally "no one's business"? To name some examples, we learn about the issues they're scared to show in public and see them having sex (though details depend on the rating). If we eliminated everything in fiction that was no one's business, there wouldn't be much of story left. Imagine what would happen if we had no idea how insecure Alladin really was.

It's perfectly fine for a story to have a couple that's completely incompatible but it has to show me why they're attracted in the first place or what keeps them together if they're dysfunctional. Sure we all see couples where we ask "what does ________ see in him/her." But if I was reading a novel about their life, it shouldn't be that way. The only acceptable exception is if it's written in the perspective of the person asking that question! Which Trek isn't.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Chakotay and Seven pairing up didn't bother me in the slightest.

Consenting adults have the right to choose to be with whomever they want. People often choose those who others don't think are right for them. That's real life. I see this as an instance of that. If these characters like each other that way, then that's who they are.

The surprise aspect of not really seeing it coming is also akin to real life. It's really no one's business but there's, so why should anyone else see it coming?

Playing it that way, as something between Chakotay and Seven that only they understand, neatly torpedoes everyone else's interest in who Seven ends up with and makes her her own person. Doing things for her own personal reasons is a nice completion of her arc to become human again and an individual. I thought Seven covertly beaming into Chuckles' quarters was kinda cool. Clearly, that underscored the privacy angle.

So, I guess I really am in the minority!

But aren't we supposed to see things about people in fiction that are normally "no one's business"? To name some examples, we learn about the issues they're scared to show in public and see them having sex (though details depend on the rating). If we eliminated everything in fiction that was no one's business, there wouldn't be much of story left. Imagine what would happen if we had no idea how insecure Alladin really was.

It's perfectly fine for a story to have a couple that's completely incompatible but it has to show me why they're attracted in the first place or what keeps them together if they're dysfunctional. Sure we all see couples where we ask "what does ________ see in him/her." But if I was reading a novel about their life, it shouldn't be that way. The only acceptable exception is if it's written in the perspective of the person asking that question! Which Trek clearly doesn't do.

I can only answer that by repeating myself, since I already explained why I consider it a worthwhile exception to the rule.

Or maybe I can elaborate. It's kind of "meta." The way it's presented, our view of their relationship is similar to that that people in-universe would have of it. If you're looking at it glass half-empty, it's an FU to the fans. If you're looking at it glass half-full, you're getting a taste of what it's like to experience Seven as her own person, acting independently of how other people think she should act, which is the key to why I actually like it. Because we are deprived of a lot of the usual tropes (which frankly, had been reused way too many times by that point in ST), it's both more random (which by that point in the series was refreshing, even if it came so late), and (at least marginally) closer to a real life experience.

By the way, as an aside since I used the phrase, my favorite VOY episode is "Real Life," and for many of the same reasons. But that's a whole other discussion that I've had before and will save again for later when it's more on-topic.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Pretty much everyone who has ever watched Voyager feels the same way. They had no chemistry. There's a rumor that Robert Beltran complained so much about his lack of character development that in order to shut him up, they gave Chakotay a romance with Seven.

But I've also heard that neither actors had any idea of an impending romance and both were stunned.

Either way, I like to pretend that it didn't happen. Or that Chakotay was having a mid-life crisis.

I figured the latter.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The family from "Real Life" was a game that anyone could play, including Kim.

 

[stardream]

I liked Real Life because I'm one of the weird ones who thought the Astral eddy was cool. Ridiculous but cool....its my favorite part of the episode. Of course I know it was just a device to put Paris in sick bay so the Doctor could connect his reckless behavior with what was going on in the holodeck and fuss at him so he could in turn have that heart to heart with the Doctor but whatever...

I like it when tropes are broken. I like the unexpected but I also like the unexpected to make sense on some level. To me it 7/C is on same level as finding out that Tuvok and Janeway had been having a passionate fling for the last seven years. Or Tuvok and Kim....

 

[Drone]

More nice solid support. I think one can make it easy to comprehend by putting it this way. The show runners felt that she was the one character(well other than Neelix) that had to have a special completion provided to her long, interminable arc as opposed to the generic one that the rest of the crew gained by simply returning home. Especially since she's the only one for whom that latter accomplishment has an uncertain, perhaps dubious promise.

So essentially, the producers had a task to perform and how did they choose to execute it? Well, naturally with the simple, conventional type of trope that so many observers found was the far too common throughout the course of the series. As I mentioned earlier, I think there was more of a substantive buildup provided than most find it too distasteful to acknowledge.

But I simply don't believe that there any conscious animus or malice in the minds of those who conceived this denouement. I think that they felt that this was the sensible, unchallenging manner to wrap Seven's story up in a nice bow and rather than disgust, Seven's graduation present would be seen as validation of all that hard work she had put in. SOP.

 

[Drone]

Oops

 

[stardream]

you're getting a taste of what it's like to experience Seven as her own person, acting independently of how other people think she should act, which is the key to why I actually like it.

Ok. But isn't it a trope in and of itself to put her in a relationship? Why not have her do something else to show us that she can act independently of other's expectations? I don't know...take up salsa dancing or something? Yes I'm being ridiculous but I hope that gets my point across.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They never dealt with her alcoholism.

 

[hux]

If you're looking at it glass half-full, you're getting a taste of what it's like to experience Seven as her own person, acting independently of how other people think she should act, which is the key to why I actually like it.

Except she's acting exactly as TV demands hot women should act. By giggling and blushing because a handsome man walked in the room.

Seven is a traumatised child trapped in the body of a woman who is psychologically held together by Borg implants and scotch tape. Once those implants fail, you'll find her sitting in the corner of a dark room, frothing at the mouth, crying and occasionally saying the word "wibble."

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sick men talk about intruding this woman's orifices constantly, but pencil's up her noose?

Weirdo.

 

[Catarina]

Watching Seven suck sauce from Chakotay's creepy little finger while he wore the world's most heinous waist coat was a step too far.

Stop that!

Stop that right now!

I almost blamed you for 'bringing that up again' but then I remember *I* did it the last time. It is more gross when it's not my own typing. :gag:

 

[hux]

Why the little finger? Surely the least sexy finger.

If you watch the video in the reunion thread, Beltran claims that their kiss wasn't passionate because he was only a hologram of Chakotay and not actually Chakotay (he never kissed her in Endgam, did he?)

There's also an amusing story from the guy who played Icheb where he explains that he was only 21 and had lots of scenes with Seven resulting in myriad unwanted boners.

 

[Green Shirt]

Am I the only one who thinks that Chuckles and Seven were an odd couple?
Any thoughts?

Not an odd couple, at all. A robot and a borg drone make a perfect pairing.

 

[Catarina]

Why the little finger? Surely the least sexy finger.

If you watch the video in the reunion thread, Beltran claims that their kiss wasn't passionate because he was only a hologram of Chakotay and not actually Chakotay (he never kissed her in Endgame, did he?)

There's also an amusing story from the guy who played Icheb where he explains that he was only 21 and had lots of scenes with Seven resulting in myriad unwanted boners.

I have a reference as to why it grosses me out but I can't mention it in this forum without getting a warning. as it is I thought we'd all have them by now but why push it? Yes, I read the rules to use the forum. Just call me Ensign Kim or Piper (OITNB) Chapman. :/

Yes, I have mad respect for Manu for being so open about such a natural reality (for everyone to laugh at)

 

[Melakon]

He probably took a lot of teasing about it on the set.

 

[Kilana2]

At least one thing I got out of the 7/C scenes: Seven wore her hair open instead of pinned-up and looked really lovely.

 

[HIjol]

nuts...better not!

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

At least one thing I got out of the 7/C scenes: Seven wore her hair open instead of pinned-up and looked really lovely.

I wish they would have allowed her hair to be loose. It looked so much nicer. But I understand that it wouldn't have been an appropriate style for her.