Spoilers Captain America: Civil War - Grading & Discussion
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
I have no doubt that it all bends and perhaps breaks real-life laws of physics, and Spider-Man comments on this directly (well, specifically about his shield, but it seemed to me a general wink at the audience on this subject) in the film.
As for whether it's inconsistent with his portrayal in previous MCU films, I'm not sure about that. Could even top human athletes chase down that speeding car and diving submarine or make the leap across that huge chasm at the Hydra base with only a short running start in The First Avenger? Or take all those jumps and falls from extreme heights to ground/water without a parachute and lap Falcon so many times while jogging in The Winter Soldier? My impression from these films was already that he's definitely at least a notch above peak human ability.
Actually it was more flushing Bucky out of hiding by having every law enforcement agency on the planet looking for him.
Agents of SHIELD made a reference to Cap pushing a tractor like a football sled...apparently that wasn't exaggerated.
I meant "squishy" in that his body is still bone, skin, and tissue. He's built like a brick-shithouse, sure, but if a brick-shithouse falls on him he's going to turn into a warm salsa all over the pavement.
Still, being able to pull a lifting helicopter back to the ground and being able to "tether" a departing helicopter to the helipad sort of goes past the notion of however "super" you want to say Cap is. There's "peak and a little more" and then there's "he's literally doing something impossible and makes no logical sense."
On the "topic" of Cap's shield and Spider-man's remarks on it. It "breaks the laws of physics" but in the MCU (or even the comics) does it? Vibranium is a material that exists and the Vibranium alloy that the shield is made of exists so obviously there's some concept in physics (if comic book physics) that allows the Vibranium to absorb and retain any energy it encounters rather than releasing it on impacts on transfering it to a struck/adjacent surface. So some aspect of "physics" allows it to do this (in the MCU, at least.)
But this is, again, different than a human being holding a helicopter to the ground with his arm!
Last edited:
Still misisng it:
Again, T'Challa found the real killer--Zemo--and this was not long after the death of his father, yet he did not kill Zemo. T'Challa has just lost his father--very raw, very recent history, and still, he did not kill Zemo. Far different than Stark's relentless attempt to kill both Bucky and eventually, Captain America after watching the tape.
He caught Zemo after a few days had passed (2 or 3, IIRC) and had moreover seen what anger and fighting over things does to people. He also caught Zemo in a very, very, human moment and had a human encounter with him. (Zemo apologizing for his father's death and that he seemed to be a good man)
Stark goes into a rage seconds after watching the tape of his mother and father being violently killed by someone in the same room as him. They weren't killed as "collateral" damage in an explosion they were, violently and actively killed by Bucky/TWS.
The deaths of his parents, and the unresolved issues with his father (T'Challa had a close relationship with his father) being a big driving force in his life and something that he's struggled with for decades.
What, was he just supposed to watch this video of his mother being killed, violently, by the man he's standing next to and just go, "NBD. You weren't in control of your mind. Want to go get some shawarma?!"
We've seen how impulsive Tony is and how likely he is to act first and ask questions later; and then, maybe, deal with the consequences. But here, he's dealing with the man who killed his parents and the man trying to protect him. He's thinking with emotions, not his brain. As he said, "He killed my mom." Tony's upset, angry, and the truth doesn't matter to him. The guy strangled his mom! He's angry and wants revenge and he's going to go through whomever he has to do it (just as BP was willing to do when hunting down Bucky.)
Stark goes into a rage seconds after watching the tape of his mother and father being violently killed by someone in the same room as him. They weren't killed as "collateral" damage in an explosion they were, violently and actively killed by Bucky/TWS.
The deaths of his parents, and the unresolved issues with his father (T'Challa had a close relationship with his father) being a big driving force in his life and something that he's struggled with for decades.
What, was he just supposed to watch this video of his mother being killed, violently, by the man he's standing next to and just go, "NBD. You weren't in control of your mind. Want to go get some shawarma?!"
We've seen how impulsive Tony is and how likely he is to act first and ask questions later; and then, maybe, deal with the consequences. But here, he's dealing with the man who killed his parents and the man trying to protect him. He's thinking with emotions, not his brain. As he said, "He killed my mom." Tony's upset, angry, and the truth doesn't matter to him. The guy strangled his mom! He's angry and wants revenge and he's going to go through whomever he has to do it (just as BP was willing to do when hunting down Bucky.)
Last edited:
Yes. Stark's introductory scene in the film made a point of reminding us of this and emphasizing it. It's a trauma that has remained unresolved for Tony. T'Challa's forgoing of vengeance against Zemo was the resolution to his. It is a contrast that tells us something about both characters and how they may be different from each other. Both had entirely relatable human reactions to their respective situations, IMO.
Yeah, which is why I mentioned that in the Ultimate comics he's much more obviously superhuman, so that's probably where they got his strength in the movies from.
You can stop a helicopter from taking off with one rope.
Tony Stark has a tendency toward self-destruction. He isn't really suicidal, though, which means this entails more sabotaging his own goals and relationships with others than actual self harm (although he does often put himself in obviously risky situations and incur harm as a result; also alcoholism). This is something he really should have learned about himself many times over by now, and his position at the outset of this movie (including his apparent estrangement from Pepper) probably reflects that on some level. This man knows from repeated observation that he has a tendency toward destruction of himself and others despite a genuine desire to do good; the evidence is literally staring him in the face. He seeks someone in authority (surrogate father figure, Ross) to take charge and protect him and them from the harm of which he knows all too well that he's capable. (Yet also, at the same time he seeks to be free from the burden of responsibility for the consequences of his actions, to shift it to authority.) But it's Tony we're talking about here, and so true to character he thwarts himself even in this. Ultimately, he ends up farther "off the reservation" than he's ever been before, farther even than he has by that point repeatedly accused Cap of being, and less under control. He almost murders someone (guilty in deed of killing his parents, but only under coercion) and succeeds in ripping his team of friends apart. We may grant, of course, that it is not only Tony working against himself but Zemo as well. Still, Zemo's plan worked because he knew Tony and others (Cap in particular) would react predictably if certain well-known buttons were pushed.
They in fact did know that he had been brainwashed because Black Widow released Hydra's files to the internet. They did not know whether or not he was still under the effects of the brainwashing, but they certainly knew they were issuing a 'shoot on sight' order for a man who legally wasn't responsible for his actions, and doing so on the basis of ridiculously flimsy evidence.
Naturalized Dutch, born and raised in America. And there's some truth in that, but probably not as much as you think.
Considering they were called the 'Sokovia Accords' and not the 'Lagos Accords', I'm fairly sure they were in the works long before the movie started. Probably before Zemo even had time to fully formulate his plan. It was just the most logical opportunity for him to destroy the avengers.
I can accept Tony going apeshit and wanting to kill Bucky at the time, but if with the benefit of hindsight he can't let go of the anger I'll be less forgiving, although emotions are funny things. How many of us get annoyed over things even though rationally we know we shouldn't? And given Tony isn't the most emotionally stable people to begin with I can see the potential for this being something he can't let go of.
Is the Civil War continuing?
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. is persisting that the Sokovian Accords are still the law of the land, in 117 counties, after the ending credits of CACW3.
The accords survived sprouting from a rotten foundation.
Tony Stark's "half" of the Avenger's are registered, but registering is just the beginning. Disobeying or ignoring oversight, whether that oversight is limiting their combat decisions, or tasking them with specific missions are new reasons to see Stark's Avengers locked up as criminals, just like Steve Rogers' Avengers were.
In the comics, registration made you an Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.. If an Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. decides that orders are silly, they're sent to a Negative Zone Prison (An hilarious allegory for Gitmo by Marvel so long ago.) so it was practically slave labour. Actually the pay was excellent, you just weren't allowed to quit, or back down/run away from an alien invasion/super-villain rampage without agreeing to prison time or your super powers being castrated.
"Sigh"
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. is persisting that the Sokovian Accords are still the law of the land, in 117 counties, after the ending credits of CACW3.
The accords survived sprouting from a rotten foundation.
Tony Stark's "half" of the Avenger's are registered, but registering is just the beginning. Disobeying or ignoring oversight, whether that oversight is limiting their combat decisions, or tasking them with specific missions are new reasons to see Stark's Avengers locked up as criminals, just like Steve Rogers' Avengers were.
In the comics, registration made you an Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.. If an Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. decides that orders are silly, they're sent to a Negative Zone Prison (An hilarious allegory for Gitmo by Marvel so long ago.) so it was practically slave labour. Actually the pay was excellent, you just weren't allowed to quit, or back down/run away from an alien invasion/super-villain rampage without agreeing to prison time or your super powers being castrated.
"Sigh"
Not if the helicopter's pulling capacity is stronger than the tensile strength of the rope, the knot, or whatever the rope is tied to on the other end. Yeah, it's "stop" it, tug on it, and maybe slow it down. But if the helicopter is stronger than the rope, the helicopter is going to win in the end. Ropes aren't magic and made out of indestructible materials.
I know. But you can ruin a chopper's take-off with a well placed one and that's my point. Some choppers can lift amazing weights, but they can also be destabilized relatively easily. Bucky almost seems to be letting Cap do his thing. The chopper is mostly moving horizontally rather than vertically, he doesn't try to jar him loose, he just pulls slowly to the side lets Cap hold on and then after a few moments he reverses direction and slams the chopper into the helipad.
That's not to say I think what Cap did was totally easy, or even if it could possibly work in real life. I have no damn idea. But I also don't know exactly how strong a Super Soldier is.
I think a better example of the fact that Cap is super strong is when he kicked the car in the beginning battle and it slammed into the enemy troops.
I've seen plenty of shows when someone gets on a helicopter suddenly and the pilot has to adjust for the extra weight, it does make a difference because the rotors need to generate more lift. And according to Falcon, Cap is heavy. And he has gravity on his side. And he's super strong.
The thing about Tony is he got a triple slap in the face at once.
He knows he's lost his parents, he's been living with losing them for 25 years, which also shouldn't be glossed that this is happening when he is already been thinking about the loss before any of this started, then finds out they were definitely murdered, not just killed in an accident. I don't know who investigated the crash but it's possible that they didn't do autopsies because it was a car crash. But then it's equally possible the coroner's findings were tampered with by any number of Hydra/SHIELD agents, too.
Then big hit #2 comes because although Howard looked to be in pretty bad shape his mom didn't seem as hurt but then watches her being strangled. Watch your mother being killed mercilessly by the guy standing next to your supposed friend that's been protecting him the whole movie.
Then #3 is that Captain Honesty that doesn't even like bad words was keeping it secret. I think that actually may have pissed him off most of all. His parents have been gone a long time but Steve was keeping the secret right up until now. I don't think Steve was brain washed. So that and Tony's "I want to punch you in your perfect teeth" plus Captain America basically broke up Tony's Avengers club (right or wrong, if they all signed they'd probably be all together). That's a lot for a level headed person to handle, and it's Tony.
I don't think Tony would have killed them, but he may have with his firepower and regretted it, but he sure wanted to kick their asses, both of them. Cap was certainly part of the rage here.
I've seen plenty of shows when someone gets on a helicopter suddenly and the pilot has to adjust for the extra weight, it does make a difference because the rotors need to generate more lift. And according to Falcon, Cap is heavy. And he has gravity on his side. And he's super strong.
The thing about Tony is he got a triple slap in the face at once.
He knows he's lost his parents, he's been living with losing them for 25 years, which also shouldn't be glossed that this is happening when he is already been thinking about the loss before any of this started, then finds out they were definitely murdered, not just killed in an accident. I don't know who investigated the crash but it's possible that they didn't do autopsies because it was a car crash. But then it's equally possible the coroner's findings were tampered with by any number of Hydra/SHIELD agents, too.
Then big hit #2 comes because although Howard looked to be in pretty bad shape his mom didn't seem as hurt but then watches her being strangled. Watch your mother being killed mercilessly by the guy standing next to your supposed friend that's been protecting him the whole movie.
Then #3 is that Captain Honesty that doesn't even like bad words was keeping it secret. I think that actually may have pissed him off most of all. His parents have been gone a long time but Steve was keeping the secret right up until now. I don't think Steve was brain washed. So that and Tony's "I want to punch you in your perfect teeth" plus Captain America basically broke up Tony's Avengers club (right or wrong, if they all signed they'd probably be all together). That's a lot for a level headed person to handle, and it's Tony.
I don't think Tony would have killed them, but he may have with his firepower and regretted it, but he sure wanted to kick their asses, both of them. Cap was certainly part of the rage here.
Last edited:
Similar threads
- Sticky
- Poll
