Spoilers Canon, Continuity, and Pike's Accident

[fireproof78]

There's stuff you think about because the story's boring you, and there's stuff you think about before the story has even had a chance to pull you in. Personally I can't always tell if I'm being unfair on SNW stories because of all the production choices, or I'm unforgiving of production choices because the stories haven't won me over. It's probably a little of both.

I must think wrong. Characters first.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I must think wrong. Characters first.

You can get characters anywhere, they're pretty much a standard part of stories. I come to Star Trek for the Star Trek.

 

[fireproof78]

You can get characters anywhere, they're pretty much a standard part of stories. I come to Star Trek for the Star Trek.

Star Trek is characters. I fell for it for Pike and Spock first and Kirk and Spock.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Star Trek without characters is pretty empty. It's always been character and story driven,

 

[fireproof78]

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This will annoy several.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Star Trek without characters is pretty empty. It's always been character and story driven,

I 100% agree. But compelling characters and good stories aren't really exclusive to Star Trek. In fact, you can find them in any series or movie worth your attention.

They're not enough.

 

[HotRod]

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This will annoy several.

I find that incredibly soothing. I have used Star Trek ambient noise to help me sleep, much to my wife's chagrin.

 

[fireproof78]

I 100% agree. But compelling characters and good stories aren't really exclusive to Star Trek. In fact, you can find them in any series or movie worth your attention.

They're not enough.

I have no idea what else to take away from fictional media other than enjoyable characters and interesting stories. Some drive deeper at times, but just because the curtains are changed doesn't make the fiction less.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I 100% agree. But compelling characters and good stories aren't really exclusive to Star Trek. In fact, you can find them in any series or movie worth your attention.

They're not enough.

The sets and props are interesting. As is the made up science. You can find similar things all over fiction as part of the window dressing. But they are not compelling, they don't engage the heart and mind the way good characters and stories do.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

The sets and props are interesting. As is the made up science. You can find similar things all over fiction as part of the window dressing. But they are not compelling, they don't engage the heart and mind the way good characters and stories do.

The characters and props aren't in competition. I'd never argue that eggs are more important than flour when it comes to making a cake, but I certainly notice when ingredients are missing or wrong.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The characters and props aren't in competition. I'd never argue that eggs are more important than flour when it comes to making a cake, but I certainly notice when ingredients are missing or wrong.

Some are more important than others. The words are important. The story is important. The actor is important. The window dressing, less so. The best designed set in world stands hollow if what's performed on is flat and meaningless. But a great actor standing alone on a bare stage, reciting the words a brilliant playwright will be a thousand times better that that set and what performed on it.

 

[fireproof78]

The sets and props are interesting. As is the made up science. You can find similar things all over fiction as part of the window dressing. But they are not compelling, they don't engage the heart and mind the way good characters and stories do.

Indeed.

Trek drew me in with the characters, a sense of adventure and a generally optimistic attitude of humanity, that we would survive in to the future despite contemporary challenges. It has a more humanistic bent in the idea of the possibility of human growth, but that isn't a guarantee. It has never shied away from the dark side of humanity, save for when "we've evolved" attitude took over.

 

[DarrenTR1970]

They don't, though. (I want to play the petty pedantry game too! )

They tell us it's been two and a half years since Kirk became Chief of Starfleet Operations.

TMP doesn't say this happened the instant the TOS 5 year mission ended. It would make sense that there'd be a period of time in between the two events, possibly spent with Kirk as a Commodore learning how to be a staff officer, or with Kirk as a Commodore in command of a squadron of ships.

The movie doesn't say that such a thing did happen, but it also doesn't say that it didn't, so there's plenty of room for 4, 5, or even 9 years between TOS and TMP.

They gave us 2 and a half years sitting at a desk. What they didn't tell us is when did the five year mission end. Was season 3 year or year 4 or 5 of the mission? If it were three that would make it almost 5 years between.

Ok. Tmp was in 2278. So it all fits. Twok was about 2282. Yup. Cool.

Okay, sure.

So, from "Turnabout Intruder" we could have:

1 year for TAS

1 year for the last year of the "5 year Mission."

4.5 years as a Commodore, commanding a squadron whilst using Big E as his flagship - and we see from TOS that at least one Commodore directly commanded his flagship whilst also, presumably, commanding a squadron (because "command squadrons" is that Commodores do.)

2.5 years on a desk.

Giving us 9 years from the end of TOS to TMP.

Alternatively, you could say TAS covers years 4 and 5 of the original 5 year mission, put in 0.5 years for an overhaul, and then have Kirk take Enterprise out for another five year mission before spending 2.5 years on the desk, and again have 9 years.

No, there's no evidence to support the existence of those additional 4 to 5 years of starship command - but I don't believe there's anything contradicting it, either.

My point being that, unless I've missed something, we have no data about how much time passes between the end of TOS and the beginning of TMP. All we're told is how long it's been since Kirk commanded a starship.

I always feel compelled to post this when there's a question about when TMP took place.

I've mentioned this before in another thread that if one were to take Gene Roddenberry's novelization of 'The Motion Picture' at face value in the early chapters he lays out a timeline of Captain Kirk and the Enterprise prior to the events of the 'Motion Picture'.

Based on that information, the timeline could be laid out thusly
9 years ago - Kirk takes command of the Enterprise (Chapter 5)
8 years ago - Start of the FYM (Chapter 11)
7 years ago - Christine Chapel joins the Enterprise (Chapter 11)
3 years ago - End of the FYM. Kirk is promoted to Admiral. McCoy retires. Scotty begins redesigning and refitting the Enterprise (Chapters 7, 9)
2.8 years ago - Spock begins studying Kolinahr on Vulcan (Chapter 2)
2 1/2 years ago - Kirk is placed in charge of Starfleet Operations (Chapter 5)
2 years ago - Chapel earns her doctorate and becomes an M.D. (Chapter 11)
18 months ago - Kirk recommends Captain Decker oversee the Enterprise refit and command her once it is completed (Chapter 3)
TMP

If you use the 2270 date from the Voyager episode 'Q2' as the end of the FYM it works out thusly.
​

2264 - 9 years ago - Kirk takes command of the Enterprise (Chapter 5)
2265 - 8 years ago - Start of the FYM (Chapter 11)
2266 - 7 years ago - Christine Chapel joins the Enterprise (Chapter 11)
2270 - 3 years ago - End of the FYM. Kirk is promoted to Admiral. McCoy retires. Scotty begins redesigning and refitting the Enterprise (Chapters 7, 9)
2270 - 2.8 years ago - Spock begins studying Kolinahr on Vulcan (Chapter 2)
2271 - 2 1/2 years ago - Kirk is placed in charge of Starfleet Operations (Chapter 5)
2271 - 2 years ago - Chapel earns her doctorate and becomes an M.D. (Chapter 11)
2272 - 18 months ago - Kirk recommends Captain Decker oversee the Enterprise refit and command her once it is completed (Chapter 3)
2273 - TMP

 

[TRON JA307020]

Some are more important than others. The words are important. The story is important. The actor is important. The window dressing, less so. The best designed set in world stands hollow if what's performed on is flat and meaningless. But a great actor standing alone on a bare stage, reciting the words a brilliant playwright will be a thousand times better that that set and what performed on it.

Well the way it was the tech flowed nicely from STE all the way to TNG or right to STP. It was cool to see that change in tech and believe it. STD and SNW changed that. The tech seems far more advanced than it should be. More advanced at timres than TNG with the transporter room, Engineering, Viewscreens etc. Im not saying they needed to replicate TOS exactly but they could have hit the mark a lot closer.

 

[fireproof78]

Since the tech in the story hasn't changed that much it seems ok.

The story works fine, the characters feels consistent. That's the important part.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well the way it was the tech flowed nicely from STE all the way to TNG or right to STP. It was cool to see that change in tech and believe it. STD and SNW changed that. The tech seems far more advanced than it should be. More advanced at timres than TNG with the transporter room, Engineering, Viewscreens etc. Im not saying they needed to replicate TOS exactly but they could have hit the mark a lot closer.

The tech works the same pretty much on all the shows. It's advancement is at a snails pace and mostly illusionary. What changes is how that tech is presented. Because the audience isn't watching from the 1960s or 1990s we aren't going to see something that looks like a movie screen from a 1990s shopping center's multiplex. Instead it's going to look like a 21st Century take on the 23rd Century. A future informed by the present.

 

[Daedalus]

It's the *Mirror* universe. The refit obviously went in the reverse direction.

Also the Mirror timeline created by Georgiou's interference in Terra Firma, so not technically THE Mirror universe.

A version of the Mirror Universe which contradicts the Mirror Universe of Discovery's first season

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I always feel compelled to post this when there's a question about when TMP took place.

I've mentioned this before in another thread that if one were to take Gene Roddenberry's novelization of 'The Motion Picture' at face value in the early chapters he lays out a timeline of Captain Kirk and the Enterprise prior to the events of the 'Motion Picture'.

Based on that information, the timeline could be laid out thusly
9 years ago - Kirk takes command of the Enterprise (Chapter 5)
8 years ago - Start of the FYM (Chapter 11)
7 years ago - Christine Chapel joins the Enterprise (Chapter 11)
3 years ago - End of the FYM. Kirk is promoted to Admiral. McCoy retires. Scotty begins redesigning and refitting the Enterprise (Chapters 7, 9)
2.8 years ago - Spock begins studying Kolinahr on Vulcan (Chapter 2)
2 1/2 years ago - Kirk is placed in charge of Starfleet Operations (Chapter 5)
2 years ago - Chapel earns her doctorate and becomes an M.D. (Chapter 11)
18 months ago - Kirk recommends Captain Decker oversee the Enterprise refit and command her once it is completed (Chapter 3)
TMP

If you use the 2270 date from the Voyager episode 'Q2' as the end of the FYM it works out thusly.
​

2264 - 9 years ago - Kirk takes command of the Enterprise (Chapter 5)
2265 - 8 years ago - Start of the FYM (Chapter 11)
2266 - 7 years ago - Christine Chapel joins the Enterprise (Chapter 11)
2270 - 3 years ago - End of the FYM. Kirk is promoted to Admiral. McCoy retires. Scotty begins redesigning and refitting the Enterprise (Chapters 7, 9)
2270 - 2.8 years ago - Spock begins studying Kolinahr on Vulcan (Chapter 2)
2271 - 2 1/2 years ago - Kirk is placed in charge of Starfleet Operations (Chapter 5)
2271 - 2 years ago - Chapel earns her doctorate and becomes an M.D. (Chapter 11)
2272 - 18 months ago - Kirk recommends Captain Decker oversee the Enterprise refit and command her once it is completed (Chapter 3)
2273 - TMP

It's surprising how well that timeline still works with the Official Okuda Chronology established later.

 

[TRON JA307020]

The tech works the same pretty much on all the shows. It's advancement is at a snails pace and mostly illusionary. What changes is how that tech is presented. Because the audience isn't watching from the 1960s or 1990s we aren't going to see something that looks like a movie screen from a 1990s shopping center's multiplex. Instead it's going to look like a 21st Century take on the 23rd Century. A future informed by the present.

But yet they bring back the D and keep the original viewscreen while the rest of the fleet has the SNW window viewscreen. They just took the fun away from the advancements. Its all mixed now and makes much less sense. I wish they would have just done a complete reboot if they couldnt find a way to make the tech and look gel in the early seasons of STD and all of SNW. SnW is closer to the mark by llthan STD but still off too much. They could have replicated the TOS bridge size, viewscreen, corridors, sick bay and engjneering by giving them a more glassy porcelain look and maybe a few other sublte changes to graphics, screens etc. Also make the enterprise the correct size. Its bigger in SNW.

I do like SNW by the way. So dont take my nitpicking as a dislike for the show. Nothing can be further from the truth.

 

[Nerys Myk]

But yet they bring back the D and jeep the or8ginal viewscreen while the rest of the fleet has the SNW window viewscreen.

Fan service. Stupid bloody fan service.