Spoilers Canon, Continuity, and Pike's Accident

[Vagabond Elf]

They gave us the number in TMP.

They don't, though. (I want to play the petty pedantry game too! )

They tell us it's been two and a half years since Kirk became Chief of Starfleet Operations.

TMP doesn't say this happened the instant the TOS 5 year mission ended. It would make sense that there'd be a period of time in between the two events, possibly spent with Kirk as a Commodore learning how to be a staff officer, or with Kirk as a Commodore in command of a squadron of ships.

The movie doesn't say that such a thing did happen, but it also doesn't say that it didn't, so there's plenty of room for 4, 5, or even 9 years between TOS and TMP.

 

[Dar70]

They gave us the number in TMP.

They gave us 2 and a half years sitting at a desk. What they didn't tell us is when did the five year mission end. Was season 3 year or year 4 or 5 of the mission? If it were three that would make it almost 5 years between.

 

[The Wormhole]

They don't, though. (I want to play the petty pedantry game too! )

They tell us it's been two and a half years since Kirk became Chief of Starfleet Operations.

TMP doesn't say this happened the instant the TOS 5 year mission ended. It would make sense that there'd be a period of time in between the two events, possibly spent with Kirk as a Commodore learning how to be a staff officer, or with Kirk as a Commodore in command of a squadron of ships.

The movie doesn't say that such a thing did happen, but it also doesn't say that it didn't, so there's plenty of room for 4, 5, or even 9 years between TOS and TMP.

The previously held belief was that Kirk was promoted during a time when Commodore was being phased out. Meaning officers who already held the rank kept it, but newly promoted officers were made Rear Admiral, Lower Half. Granted, that was in the 90s when TPTB believed Starfleet literally was the US Navy in space. Now we know that Commodore was not removed from Starfleet like it was from the US Navy, and continues to be a rank into the 32nd century, so that theory is out the window.

Still, we have seen Captains jumping flag ranks seems to be quite common in Starfleet. Picard went from Captain directly to four star Admiral, as did Pike in the Kelvin timeline. Janeway went directly to three star Vice Admiral. So, I see no reason why Kirk couldn't have skipped Commodore.

Besides, we know that Kirk's five year mission ended in 2270, as per the previously established Voyager reference. Likewise we know Kirk's presumed death on the Enterprise B was in 2293, as per the screen caption in Generations referring to the TNG portion of the movie (which we canonically know is 2371) as "78 years later." That means we have a 23 year window to place the TOS movies. Might as well stick with the Chronology dates, as they line up reasonably well. As reasonably well as anything in Trek continuity or canon does anyway.

 

[Nerys Myk]

They gave us 2 and a half years sitting at a desk. What they didn't tell us is when did the five year mission end. Was season 3 year or year 4 or 5 of the mission? If it were three that would make it almost 5 years between.

They don't, though. (I want to play the petty pedantry game too! )

They tell us it's been two and a half years since Kirk became Chief of Starfleet Operations.

Nope Two and half years since Captaining a ship. The context is clear.

So. how do we explain the characters aging seven years between STII and STV when only a few months has passed in universe?

Bonus question: Is there a decade of time in universe between STV and STVI?

 

[Dar70]

Nope Two and half years since Captaining a ship. The context is clear.

So. how do we explain the characters aging seven years between STII and STV when only a few months has passed in universe?

Bonus question: Is there a decade of time in universe between STV and STVI?

I'm not arguing that .. I know it was 2.5 years since he captained a ship. . Fireproof said the characters were not the same from TOS. I said that 4 or 5 years after we last seen them they are bound to be changed. Kirk is stale after 2 and a half years of desk sitting, McCoy hasn't been with Starfleet since the 5 year mission apparently and Spock of course tried shedding his remaining emotion. I still stand by what I said and think TMP is closer in tone to TOS then any film or series after it.

As for the aging thing. They don't look to terribly different from Star Trek 2 and we don't know exactly how many months have passed since 4. What I do know is that Nimoys makeup was horrible...

 

[HotRod]

They gave us 2 and a half years sitting at a desk. What they didn't tell us is when did the five year mission end. Was season 3 year or year 4 or 5 of the mission? If it were three that would make it almost 5 years between.

Voyager answered that, as pointed out earlier. The 5 year mission ended in 2270.

 

[UssGlenn]

I find it hard to believe that tmp was two and a half years from tos and everything changed and everyone looks older by a decade. But tmp and twok are 10 years apart and only the uniforms changed.

Basically the gaps between the movies were reversed. Since they shortened the in universe time before TMP they had to lengthen it before TWOK to catch up with the actors ages.

 

[Dar70]

Voyager answered that, as pointed out earlier. The 5 year mission ended in 2270.

Ok. Again 2-3 years is plenty of time for Kirk to get Stale, McCoy to grow a beard and Spock to shed most of his remaining emotion. And I still stand by that TMP is as close to TOS we ever got and most likely ever will.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Voyager answered that, as pointed out earlier. The 5 year mission ended in 2270.

Ok. Tmp was in 2278. So it all fits. Twok was about 2282. Yup. Cool.

 

[HotRod]

Ok. Tmp was in 2278. So it all fits. Twok was about 2282. Yup.

Ok, so again.... the Enterprise was set to be decommissioned only 4 years after an extensive refit?

 

[TRON JA307020]

Ok, so again.... the Enterprise was set to be decommissioned only 4 years after an extensive refit?

Looks like it. Starfleet was bringing in the new generation of starships. The refit got another 4 years out of the old gal while they were building the excelsior. Not too bad. She was 30 years in service at that time. Pretty good run.

 

[HotRod]

Looks like it. Starfleet was bringing in the new generation of starships. The refit got another 4 years out of the old gal while they were building the excelsior. Not too bad. She was 30 years in service at that time. Pretty good run.

No, it doesn't "look like it." Spending 18 months to refit a ship you're only gonna get 4 years out of, makes zero sense.

 

[TRON JA307020]

No, it doesn't "look like it." Spending 18 months to refit a ship you're only gonna get 4 years out of, makes zero sense.

The building of the excelsior probably took longer to build and maybe construction started a year or so after tmp but once she was built the starfleet brass decided it was time to mothball the 1701. When I worked in grocery the company spent a ton of money remodeling our old store that had been in operation since 1967. When they were done it looked brand new with new shelves, new registers, bakery equipment, meat equipment etc. Only 4 years later they moved us to a huge new modern building with all the modern conveniences. They needed a new bigger building to compete. The equivalent happened to the enterprise.

 

[Campe]

You do you. I like the Okudas’ explanation better.

 

[Vagabond Elf]

Nope Two and half years since Captaining a ship. The context is clear.

So. how do we explain the characters aging seven years between STII and STV when only a few months has passed in universe?

Bonus question: Is there a decade of time in universe between STV and STVI?

Okay, sure.

So, from "Turnabout Intruder" we could have:

1 year for TAS

1 year for the last year of the "5 year Mission."

4.5 years as a Commodore, commanding a squadron whilst using Big E as his flagship - and we see from TOS that at least one Commodore directly commanded his flagship whilst also, presumably, commanding a squadron (because "command squadrons" is that Commodores do.)

2.5 years on a desk.

Giving us 9 years from the end of TOS to TMP.

Alternatively, you could say TAS covers years 4 and 5 of the original 5 year mission, put in 0.5 years for an overhaul, and then have Kirk take Enterprise out for another five year mission before spending 2.5 years on the desk, and again have 9 years.

No, there's no evidence to support the existence of those additional 4 to 5 years of starship command - but I don't believe there's anything contradicting it, either.

My point being that, unless I've missed something, we have no data about how much time passes between the end of TOS and the beginning of TMP. All we're told is how long it's been since Kirk commanded a starship.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Okay, sure.

So, from "Turnabout Intruder" we could have:

1 year for TAS

1 year for the last year of the "5 year Mission."

4.5 years as a Commodore, commanding a squadron whilst using Big E as his flagship - and we see from TOS that at least one Commodore directly commanded his flagship whilst also, presumably, commanding a squadron (because "command squadrons" is that Commodores do.)

2.5 years on a desk.

Giving us 9 years from the end of TOS to TMP.

Alternatively, you could say TAS covers years 4 and 5 of the original 5 year mission, put in 0.5 years for an overhaul, and then have Kirk take Enterprise out for another five year mission before spending 2.5 years on the desk, and again have 9 years.

No, there's no evidence to support the existence of those additional 4 to 5 years of starship command - but I don't believe there's anything contradicting it, either.

My point being that, unless I've missed something, we have no data about how much time passes between the end of TOS and the beginning of TMP. All we're told is how long it's been since Kirk commanded a starship.

Exactly. Just because kirk has been at a desk for two and a half by no means implies he left the ebnterprise when the 5 years were up and its only 2 and a half years later.

 

[HotRod]

My point being that, unless I've missed something, we have no data about how much time passes between the end of TOS and the beginning of TMP. All we're told is how long it's been since Kirk commanded a starship.

Monster maroon uniforms were in use by 2278. Pretty much putting that as the last possible year TMP could have taken place.

 

[fireproof78]

My point being that, unless I've missed something, we have no data about how much time passes between the end of TOS and the beginning of TMP. All we're told is how long it's been since Kirk commanded a starship.

Correct.

We have no data. We have assumption and fans filling in the details. Which is, in my opinion, a very good thing, and something I do with SNW to help it fit together. That it is useful in the past and continues to be very useful now.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Monster maroon uniforms were in use by 2278. Pretty much putting that as the last possible year TMP could have taken place.

I hope we get to see Captain Fraiser again one day. Hes younger than Picard.

 

[fireproof78]

Ok. Again 2-3 years is plenty of time for Kirk to get Stale, McCoy to grow a beard and Spock to shed most of his remaining emotion. And I still stand by that TMP is as close to TOS we ever got and most likely ever will.

The characters start out estranged, Kirk is an asshole to junior officers, and McCoy is afraid of the transporter.

That's the closest to TOS we'll ever get?

Well, it's great that all those people died so we can have the sensible chuckle at the end and move on, amirite?