...You know what I like about this place? All the great conversations.
Spoilers Canon, Continuity, and Pike's Accident
- Thread starter CorporalCaptain
- Start date
I learn something new every day
Someone tagged this post from before season 2. I felt I needed to update my former self.
I still don't like A Quality of Mercy very much (except for the end scene with Pike and Spock), But WOW did I love Wesley's Kirk in season 2!
For sure, Wesley's performance as Kirk in S2 was much better than in the S1 finale, where he seemed to be trying too hard to mimic Shatner.
This is also a poor argument that comes up alot though.
Yes, there was a change between TOS and TMP. TOS takes place before TMP, therefore... something happened in-between TOS and TMP to cause a difference in appearance. I can accept that. No explanation needed. "something happened".
DSC takes place in between ENT and TOS.
We know what Klingons looked like during ENT.
We know what Klingons looked like during TOS.
ENT even provided an explanation as to why there was a difference between those two. It wasn't actually necessary, but whatever.
DSC... does not look like either of them, despite being set in a time period where the works have established what the Klingons look like.
It's not an apples to apples comparison. Sure, we can do all sorts of mental gymnastics to make sense of it, or just throw our hands up use the studio's explanation "that's just how they look now", but it's stupid and even THEY know it, given how they immediately back tracked on it and by S2 there was a shift back.
I'm less annoyed that they look different, i'm more annoyed that they look different and they didn't utilize such a stark difference to tell some sort of story with it. I remember the lead up to DSC, thinking... hey, maybe these "Klingons" are some kind of ancient Klingon people who have come back to retake the Empire, or they are some like, client race of the Klingon Empire trying to usurp power from the Klingons, or some other kind of cool story... but... no. They just look like that now.
It bugs me as well when you take Ash into account. Once we know he's Klingon, it was like "Oh, cool, they're going to acknowledge the augment virus and smooth head Klingons!"... nope, brutal one of a kind surgery. Damn it, Discovery. You created a great idea that had an in-built connection to established lore. Ash shouldn't be a one off, have the Klingons harness the affliction and use it to infiltrate the Federation. There's a whole damn army of Ash's out there, who eventually either get exposed or never quite make it into the Federation who end up being most commonly stationed near the border, because not only do they look like humans... they think like humans, giving the Klingons an edge when dealing with them.
I have no issue with the less egregious "visual updates", like the Andorians. That was also an unnecessary update, but it's totally fine. I can buy DSC Andorians along with the rest of the Andorians we have seen. I'm in a weird place with the Tellarites... i'm ok with them too, even though look nothing like ENT Tellarites, but they look good. I'm more willing to be an apologist about stuff if it's good.
I'll never see how one Klingon change is worse than another. "Something happened!" Is satisfactory regardless of time frame, if used at all.
Or, it's a double standard.
Or, it's a double standard.
I don't know how many times it needs to be said, but I'll say it again...
Star Trek is not a period piece. It is not a historical drama. It is under no obligation to be historically accurate. It is open for different artistic interpretations. It is a work of fiction, depicting an ever evolving fictional interpretation of our future.
Star Trek is not a period piece. It is not a historical drama. It is under no obligation to be historically accurate. It is open for different artistic interpretations. It is a work of fiction, depicting an ever evolving fictional interpretation of our future.
I wonder if the Peanut Gallery would cry "Canon Violation" if they saw one of those productions of Shakespeare plays where the cast wears modern clothes, but the script is the exact same as the Bard wrote it?
Now I'm curious...
Did the actors dress up in togas and such when performing Julius Caesar in Shakespeare's time?
Spock: It's possible.
Now I'm curious...
Did the actors dress up in togas and such when performing Julius Caesar in Shakespeare's time?
Mckellen's Richard III is my favorite Shakespeare adaptation of all time. the stuck jeep leading to "my kingdom for a horse" was inspired.
I freaking LOVE Hamlet set in modern day New York City. The Denmark Corporation! Bill Murray doing Shakespeare! (He's actually really good as Polonius.) Osric as a fax machine! Kyle MacLachlan as Claudius! The awesomeness is off the charts. And no, I'm not being sarcastic.
And Romeo + Juliet is pretty damn cool as well. I love it when somebody says "Put up your swords!" and everybody whips out a gun - whose brand name is Sword.
I mean, in what universe do scenes like this NOT kick ass:
(fun fact about that one: When they were doing the scene where Romeo finds Juliet dead, Leonardo di Caprio's acting so moved Claire Danes that she kept tearing up. So she whacks Leo upside the head and said "Would you stop making me cry? I'm supposed to be dead here!"
)
I heard a rumor that Sir Ian and Sir Patrick were going to do a version of The Merchant of Venice set in modern day Vegas but I guess that's off the table now.
And Romeo + Juliet is pretty damn cool as well. I love it when somebody says "Put up your swords!" and everybody whips out a gun - whose brand name is Sword.
I mean, in what universe do scenes like this NOT kick ass:
(fun fact about that one: When they were doing the scene where Romeo finds Juliet dead, Leonardo di Caprio's acting so moved Claire Danes that she kept tearing up. So she whacks Leo upside the head and said "Would you stop making me cry? I'm supposed to be dead here!"
)I heard a rumor that Sir Ian and Sir Patrick were going to do a version of The Merchant of Venice set in modern day Vegas but I guess that's off the table now.
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Or that the female parts are played by actual females.*
(*-Those parts were played by boys in Shakespeare's time.)
Here's something no one ever seems to touch on...if the SNW is in the same continuity as TOS and the movies...even the refit Enterprise bridge looks primitive compared to the SNW bridge, which is huge with that big wide screen. In TMP the refit Enterprise main viewscreen is *small* compared to the SNW giant window...and the bridge itself is tiny too.
So if the SNW Enterprise bridge is the "REAL" bridge, then the "real" TMP bridge is this giant bridge with an almost wrap-around screen. (And what does that bridge look like, I would love to see some fan takes on it.)
(I mean we already saw an retconned "Wrath of Kahn" era "Monster Maroon" uniform.
And also, the Refit itself would have to look different in SNW's future than it looked in TMP and TWOK.
For one it would have to be bigger.
And where do the changes stop? In Picard we saw that the Enterprise-D bridge still looks like we remember (and we ALSO say a classic TOS style Constitution Class as well as THE classic 1701-A looking like it always is.)
But the TNG and Voyager bridges look tiny and primitive compared to bridges on the Discovery and SNW...so are there also SNW-ified versions of those!?
I'd actually like to see fan versions of a Discoverse TNG era. Some of Proberts concepts for the Enterprise-D bridge look like that would work for that. There is one with a GIANT, TOWERING main viewscreen that looks like if you took the SNW style viewscreen and gave it 100+ years of development.
Any other time they have shown the TOS era, ships and sets and costumes and props in TNG era Trek, they look like they did in TOS, with just some slight tweets. But we saw that is TNG's "Relics" and "Trials and Tribblations" and in Enterprise's Mirror Universe episodes. Lower Decks has always recreated TOS and movie-era Trek with screen accuracy. (Uh, ignore the cross-over episode, I explain later that wasn't OUR Boimler and Mariner, but the Discoverse versions. The Prime versions ALSO met Pike, but on the Prime version of the Enterprise.)
But heck even in Prodgy, in that great episode where we met the "Enterprizians" - though for *some* reason the Starfleet uniform belonging to the stranded crew member - who I guess *no one* went looking for - was a *Star Trek Beyond* Red Shirt uniform!? WTH!? But the Enterprizians recreations were definately TOS inspired (but the nacelles on their Enterprise-hut looked like Gabe Koener created them - or they were a homage!) Even the Holo-recreation of the Enterprise control consoles were definately TOS - and not the Strange New Worlds/Discoverse version! And even "Picard" showed us a TOS style Connie and the Enterprise-A looking exactly like it did in the movies! (Of course we also saw the Discoprise on the holo-display at Starfleet HQ...just to confuse stuff.)
So if SNW ever does an episode where a crew member travels in time to the original cast movie era, what would the Enterprise refit look like to them!? Like it always has...with the tiny bridge and tiny viewscreen!? Or would he see a Discoverse version with a big wrap-around screen?
What an SNW character travels to the Picard era for an episode of "Star Trek: Legacy", and they go to the fleet museum...what version of the Enterprise will they see? If it's the one from the movies and from "Picard" season 3...they are gonna be looking at a ship that was smaller and had a less advanced bridge than there on "old" Enterprise.
Best to keep Disco and SNW in their own timeline, one where events played out similar to the Prime Timeline...but some stuff was different...like the technology. And we can say that the Boimler and Mariner we saw were from the SNW version of the Timeline...and in the Prime Timeline, Boimler Prime and Mariner Prime also met Pike...but *Prime* Pike, on the Enterprise we saw in "The Cage".
So if the SNW Enterprise bridge is the "REAL" bridge, then the "real" TMP bridge is this giant bridge with an almost wrap-around screen. (And what does that bridge look like, I would love to see some fan takes on it.)
(I mean we already saw an retconned "Wrath of Kahn" era "Monster Maroon" uniform.
And also, the Refit itself would have to look different in SNW's future than it looked in TMP and TWOK.
For one it would have to be bigger.
And where do the changes stop? In Picard we saw that the Enterprise-D bridge still looks like we remember (and we ALSO say a classic TOS style Constitution Class as well as THE classic 1701-A looking like it always is.)
But the TNG and Voyager bridges look tiny and primitive compared to bridges on the Discovery and SNW...so are there also SNW-ified versions of those!?
I'd actually like to see fan versions of a Discoverse TNG era. Some of Proberts concepts for the Enterprise-D bridge look like that would work for that. There is one with a GIANT, TOWERING main viewscreen that looks like if you took the SNW style viewscreen and gave it 100+ years of development.
Any other time they have shown the TOS era, ships and sets and costumes and props in TNG era Trek, they look like they did in TOS, with just some slight tweets. But we saw that is TNG's "Relics" and "Trials and Tribblations" and in Enterprise's Mirror Universe episodes. Lower Decks has always recreated TOS and movie-era Trek with screen accuracy. (Uh, ignore the cross-over episode, I explain later that wasn't OUR Boimler and Mariner, but the Discoverse versions. The Prime versions ALSO met Pike, but on the Prime version of the Enterprise.)
But heck even in Prodgy, in that great episode where we met the "Enterprizians" - though for *some* reason the Starfleet uniform belonging to the stranded crew member - who I guess *no one* went looking for - was a *Star Trek Beyond* Red Shirt uniform!? WTH!? But the Enterprizians recreations were definately TOS inspired (but the nacelles on their Enterprise-hut looked like Gabe Koener created them - or they were a homage!) Even the Holo-recreation of the Enterprise control consoles were definately TOS - and not the Strange New Worlds/Discoverse version! And even "Picard" showed us a TOS style Connie and the Enterprise-A looking exactly like it did in the movies! (Of course we also saw the Discoprise on the holo-display at Starfleet HQ...just to confuse stuff.)
So if SNW ever does an episode where a crew member travels in time to the original cast movie era, what would the Enterprise refit look like to them!? Like it always has...with the tiny bridge and tiny viewscreen!? Or would he see a Discoverse version with a big wrap-around screen?
What an SNW character travels to the Picard era for an episode of "Star Trek: Legacy", and they go to the fleet museum...what version of the Enterprise will they see? If it's the one from the movies and from "Picard" season 3...they are gonna be looking at a ship that was smaller and had a less advanced bridge than there on "old" Enterprise.
Best to keep Disco and SNW in their own timeline, one where events played out similar to the Prime Timeline...but some stuff was different...like the technology. And we can say that the Boimler and Mariner we saw were from the SNW version of the Timeline...and in the Prime Timeline, Boimler Prime and Mariner Prime also met Pike...but *Prime* Pike, on the Enterprise we saw in "The Cage".
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Not really. Put a few updated visuals on the monitors of the Refit and it would look right at home with the SNW version.
Well no.... until we reach a point where there's some official visual update to the refit, the refit still looks like the refit. Complete with viewscreen.
Why? The ship was refit. We know this. Hell, the refit actually looks much more like the SNW Enterprise than it does the TOS. It's actually easier to believe the SNW version became the refit. As for size, it's never been seen or stated on screen. Bumping up the size of the refit has no real negatives beyond making the windows bigger. The Rec deck and Shuttlebay/Cargo bay could actually fit in the thing at a larger size.
As mentioned, the size of the Enterprise has never really been established in canon, until now.
I'll give you that Discovery looked more advanced, but not the Enterprise. It looks like a believable progression from the NX-01 and the Kelvin.
They'll see whatever the showrunner wants to see. Both the TOS Enterprise and the SNW Enterprise are..... THE Enterprise. Only difference is that Strange New Worlds presents it with an updated visual aesthetic for modern audiences.
Nah. I'd much rather expand on the characters we love but knew so very little about. Making it an alternate timeline destroys that aspect of SNW.
That pike was from an alternate future. Not a retcon
Not sure if it was asked already, but is the part of Pike we see above the chair all that's left?
Makes me think of the Borg Queen being just a spinal column, neck, and head, essentially, at the point she was seen.
Makes me think of the Borg Queen being just a spinal column, neck, and head, essentially, at the point she was seen.
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