Can we just pretend that Voyager never happened?

[Anwar]

It's manifest to me that she jumped the gun on that one. There was no need to hurry to go to the borg's rescue the way she did. They could have stayed back and watched the borg's ranks get a litte thinner, for one thing they would have been in a stronger position and could have asked for the borg to send them directly to the alpha quadrant instead of crossing their space at a snail pace.

Well, they were never getting home (due to the premise) so that was never going to happen.

And the longer they waited, the greater the chance they'd be killed by the 8472 (who could easily divert more forces to kill THEM when there were fewer Borg).

I am convinced that they are the worst threat the Galaxy has ever known.

Q, the Pah-Wraiths, V'Ger, Trelaine, the Doomsday Machine, Nagilum, the Whale Probe, the Hellenic Gods, etc.

All much more powerful than the Borg.

They are like a cancer, expanding until there isn't even one planet left that isn't controlled by them.

They can be destroyed and/or cured.

Remember how Arturis talked about the plight of his species and how they had kept the borg at bay for centuries but were finally losing the fight against them.

Arturis and his people were fools, they could easily have weaponized their space drive tech to fight the Borg and win but did nothing.

And he fails to realize that his people would've just been wiped out by the 8472 anyways.

 

[fireproof78]

Q, the Pah-Wraiths, V'Ger, Trelaine, the Doomsday Machine, Nagilum, the Whale Probe, the Hellenic Gods, etc.

All much more powerful than the Borg.

.

Of those on that list, only the Pah-Wraiths use their power to attempt to take over the galaxy on a constant, malevolent way. The rest either are self-limiting, uninterested, or have removed themselves.

The Borg, while not the most powerful aliens, are among the most malevolent. Species 8472 is just has malevolent, with xenophobic tendencies.

Someone needs to start a support group

But they're more powerful than the Borg and more willing to do something with their power, which makes them a priority.

The Borg are just as willing to do something with that power, and learning to defeat a more powerful species is not going to make them less malevolent.

 

[Anwar]

Of those on that list, only the Pah-Wraiths use their power to attempt to take over the galaxy on a constant, malevolent way. The rest either are self-limiting, uninterested, or have removed themselves.

The Borg, while not the most powerful aliens, are among the most malevolent. Species 8472 is just has malevolent, with xenophobic tendencies.

But they're not as powerful as those others. There's no indication that the Borg are anywhere near a V'Ger or Whale Probe level threat. There are thousands of species as powerful as the Borg out there.

But they're more powerful than the Borg and more willing to do something with their power, which makes them a priority.

The Borg are just as willing to do something with that power, and learning to defeat a more powerful species is not going to make them less malevolent.[/QUOTE]

No, but they're still beatable and frankly, not really worthy of the fear they generate.

Is the Doctor in Doctor Who afraid of the Cybermen?

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Borg promote peace.

World peace collectively for every planet they encounter, and for every individual on those planets: Enlightenment and Immortality.

In comparison what does the Federation offer?

 

[fireproof78]

Of those on that list, only the Pah-Wraiths use their power to attempt to take over the galaxy on a constant, malevolent way. The rest either are self-limiting, uninterested, or have removed themselves.

The Borg, while not the most powerful aliens, are among the most malevolent. Species 8472 is just has malevolent, with xenophobic tendencies.

But they're not as powerful as those others. There's no indication that the Borg are anywhere near a V'Ger or Whale Probe level threat. There are thousands of species as powerful as the Borg out there.

But they're more powerful than the Borg and more willing to do something with their power, which makes them a priority.

The Borg are just as willing to do something with that power, and learning to defeat a more powerful species is not going to make them less malevolent.

No, but they're still beatable and frankly, not really worthy of the fear they generate.

Is the Doctor in Doctor Who afraid of the Cybermen?

But the listed aliens are not a threat, or malevolent. The whale probe was just ignorant of the destruction, at least according to official smart person Spock. V'Ger was a modified human creation, and we have not seen that threat again.

The Borg continue to expand out, and are defeated in repeatedly ridiculous ways.

Please note, I am not calling them The Worst Enemy (trademark pending) that Trek has ever seen. They are among the most malevolent.

As for DW, that is a bit of a non sequiter, or at least I don't follow the point. The Cybermen have a different origin story (humanity), and the Doctor isn't the Federation. Not really relevant to this discussion.

 

[Galekarens]

You can, by all means. But a far as I'm concerned, Voyager > Next Generation and Deep Space Nine.

I think he should pretend it didn't happen so he doesn't have to post here.

In answer to the original question, NO, as someone who LOVED TOS, LOVED TNG, Liked DS9 ok, but LOVED LOVED Voyager, would not at all want, cheers! PS and neither would I'd think the many Voyager fans am acquainted with.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Actually a novel at some point concluded that the Borg were the Machine race who upgraded V'Ger, ifso then Dekker might be incapable of fighting the Borg since it is a conflict of interest, if he doesn't outright have governors stopping him from even trying.

Gene Roddenberry in an interview shortly after "Q Who" said that the machine planet seen by Spock might have been the Borg homeworld. (Star Trek Encyclopedia) This idea was further developed in the William ve been the Borg homeworld. (Star Trek Encyclopedia) This idea was further developed in the William Shatner novel The Return, where Spock's mind meld with V'ger not only protected Spock from being assimilated (since the Collective was already present in Spock's mind, the Borg assumed he was already one of them), but provided the Federation with the coordinates of the Borg homeworld for a final attack. It may also be significant that Spock, when referring to V'ger, says, "Resistance would be futile." In the game Star Trek: Legacy, it is said that V'ger itself created the Borg to gain the knowledge by assimilation. The Star Trek: Voyager episode "Dragon's Teeth" seems to contradict the game's storyline, as the character of Gedrin states to Seven of Nine that his species, the Vaadwaur, had encountered the Borg over nine centuries prior to his revival, placing the Borg's genesis at least as far back as around the year 1400 AD. The story writers for Star Trek: Legacy, however, claimed on the official game forum that Voyager 6 was meant to have been thrown back in time as well as across the galaxy, an aspect mentioned in the "extras" cut-scenes of the game itself. Star Trek Online also hints at a connection to the Borg, as vessels closely resembling V'ger are featured as Borg mini-bosses, even including the disintegrating plasma weapons and the V'ger-style low-pitched sound effects.

[1]V'ger appears in the third issue of the comic book Star Trek: Nero, set during 2009's Star Trek. After escaping twenty-five years of imprisonment on Rura Penthe in the alternate reality he caused, Nero is taken by the Narada – itself an artificial intelligence due to its Borg-based modifications – to V'ger, which Nero uses to calculate where and when Spock will arrive.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

. But they're not as powerful as those others. There's no indication that the Borg are anywhere near a V'Ger or Whale Probe level threat. There are thousands of species as powerful as the Borg out there.

I am sorry but the problem is not power it's malevolence. In that respect the borg are much worse than the ones that you've listed, the ones that aren't already defeated that is.

.


..No, but they're still beatable and frankly, not really worthy of the fear they generate.
...

One borg cube almost assimilated Earth and the entire federation, the only thing that stopped it is a last minute opportunity due to Picard's recapture.


Then, a few years later, one borg sphere DID assimilate Earth using time travel, if not for the Enterprise's intervention, they would have remained assimilated... forever.

If you call that "not really worthy of the fear they generate" then I am at a loss as to what it would take to convince you.

 

[Anwar]

The Borg continue to expand out, and are defeated in repeatedly ridiculous ways.

That's what happens when you stupidly overpower an enemy that much and you DON'T make them a one-shot.

It would've been so easy just to explain that the Borg Cube in BOBW had found some alien power source on some dead world which amplified it's power 100x over and THIS was why it was so powerful. It made the Borg a threat in that one occasion and left the door open to future Borg encounters where they wouldn't be that overpowered.

I am sorry but the problem is not power it's malevolence. In that respect the borg are much worse than the ones that you've listed, the ones that aren't already defeated that is.

I'd say Q and Nagilum and others are worse in the malevolence department.

If you call that "not really worthy of the fear they generate" then I am at a loss as to what it would take to convince you.

They act like the Borg are worse than Q or the Doomsday Machine or anything like that. Which is wrong.

 

[bbjeg]

...If you call that "not really worthy of the fear they generate" then I am at a loss as to what it would take to convince you.

...They act like the Borg are worse than Q or the Doomsday Machine or anything like that. Which is wrong.

Q never killed anyone and it's debatable on who effected more lives between the Borg and the Doomsday Machine.

 

[fireproof78]

The Borg continue to expand out, and are defeated in repeatedly ridiculous ways.

That's what happens when you stupidly overpower an enemy that much and you DON'T make them a one-shot.

It would've been so easy just to explain that the Borg Cube in BOBW had found some alien power source on some dead world which amplified it's power 100x over and THIS was why it was so powerful. It made the Borg a threat in that one occasion and left the door open to future Borg encounters where they wouldn't be that overpowered.

I am sorry but the problem is not power it's malevolence. In that respect the borg are much worse than the ones that you've listed, the ones that aren't already defeated that is.

I'd say Q and Nagilum and others are worse in the malevolence department.

If you call that "not really worthy of the fear they generate" then I am at a loss as to what it would take to convince you.

They act like the Borg are worse than Q or the Doomsday Machine or anything like that. Which is wrong.

This is not a question of power. As someone else pointed out, it is a question of malevolence. Nagilum was an alien life form trying to understand humanity. kind of like the Prophets.

Q is just a jerk, who (like Trelane) uses humanity and other races as play things. He is petty, arrogant and ultimately no different than humanity, save for his powers. The Continuum seemed more removed from humanity, and only care about themselves.

The Borg are actively trying to make all lifeforms like them. Their stated purpose is add species to the collective to service their own ends.

Are they the most powerful enemy? No, but that doesn't make the less of a threat, less malevolent or their view of the rest of the universe.

From a writing stand point, the fact that the writers did not know how to handle the Borg, does not make the less of a threat. It just means they were poorly handled.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

[...
I'd say Q and Nagilum and others are worse in the malevolence department.
...

Nagilum either wasn't that powerful or that bad, because he could have said to the Enterprise, "Ok, blow yourself up, I don't care."

Instead, he released them, so either he wasn't powerful enough to withstand the explosion or nasty enough to see them all die at once. Either way that makes him much less threatening than the borg who couldn't care less about how many people get hurt as a result to their actions.

As for Q, please!! He seems to have a Picard fixation and later on a Janeway one. Other than that, we hardly see him.

How can you even compare him to the borg?

...
They act like the Borg are worse than Q or the Doomsday Machine or anything like that. Which is wrong.

That's because they are, much worse. The doomsday machine could only destroy one planet at a time, before it affects as many worlds as the borg have, it would take thousands of years. Also the machine was dealt with by blowing up one single spaceship, the borg were merely slowed down by an entire fleet that they completely destroyed.

How can't you see that?

 

[Anwar]

Nagilum either wasn't that powerful or that bad, because he could have said to the Enterprise, "Ok, blow yourself up, I don't care."

Instead, he released them, so either he wasn't powerful enough to withstand the explosion or nasty enough to see them all die at once. Either way that makes him much less threatening than the borg who couldn't care less about how many people get hurt as a result to their actions.

He invested time and effort into his study of them and didn't want that investment wasted.

How can you even compare him to the borg?

In terms of power and how he could easily destroy Humanity (and tried at least once, taking the Galaxy with them), yes I do put him above the Borg. Who can be beaten on their own terms.

That's because they are, much worse. The doomsday machine could only destroy one planet at a time, before it affects as many worlds as the borg have, it would take thousands of years. Also the machine was dealt with by blowing up one single spaceship, the borg were merely slowed down by an entire fleet that they completely destroyed.

The Borg Cube couldn't even destroy ONE planet, and all it took the stop the Borg Cube in BOBW WAS one ship (the Enterprise) with ingenuity.

TBH, I never understood why the Borg Cube couldn't destroy the Enterprise as easily as it destroy all those other ships.

From a writing stand point, the fact that the writers did not know how to handle the Borg, does not make the less of a threat. It just means they were poorly handled

This was one thing I will give to TOS, they knew that enemies like this are better as one-shots/two-shots. They're too boring and 1-D to be workable more than that.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

...
He invested time and effort into his study of them and didn't want that investment wasted.
...

That doesn't even make sense. The experience lasted merely a few hours and he didn't invest anything, he trapped them with his hole in space. He fished them, so to speak.

Besides if he releases them, his "investment" is lost all the same. Why should he care if they blow themselves up if he's this nasty all powerful being. Nope I only see him as a mild threat compared to the whole borg machinery.

In terms of power and how he could easily destroy Humanity (and tried at least once, taking the Galaxy with them), yes I do put him above the Borg. Who can be beaten on their own terms.

So if you have two people one very strong but who's never harmed anybody and another one who's much shorter and weaker but who keeps doing nasty things all the time, you'll be more wary of the strong one? Strange logic.

 

[Anwar]

Besides if he releases them, his "investment" is lost all the same. Why should he care if they blow themselves up if he's this nasty all powerful being.

You're assuming he can't track them down for other stuff later on.

So if you have two people one very strong but who's never harmed anybody

Q has harmed plenty of people, his fellow Q punished him for it. Arguably he's done more damage than the Borg if you look at things as a whole.

and another one who's much shorter and weaker but who keeps doing nasty things all the time, you'll be more wary of the strong one? Strange logic.

If the shorter one is always beaten off and you always come up with a weapon to destroy them every time...yeah, the strong guy who kills more people when he DOES do stuff is the bigger threat.

Really, the Feds should be all "Okay, these Borg are a danger but we've faced worse and survived so let's keep that in mind."

Instead of acting like the Borg are some super-threat and they've never encountered beings that powerful before.

Hell, all it took to destroy the Borg ship in "Descent" was a skeleton crew.

I can guarantee that if Voyager had done that first (destroy a Borg Cube with a solar flare) then the audience would be up in arms over how a solar flare shouldn't have had the power to even scratch a Borg Cube.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Besides if he releases them, his "investment" is lost all the same. Why should he care if they blow themselves up if he's this nasty all powerful being.

You're assuming he can't track them down for other stuff later on.

If he could do that why would he need to even trap them in the first place? In fact, if he could do that, the whole galaxy is his oyster, why does he need to experiment on the Enterprise alone, when he has the billions of beings that populate the whole galaxy. Your assumptions are not very coherent.

So if you have two people one very strong but who's never harmed anybody

Q has harmed plenty of people, his fellow Q punished him for it. Arguably he's done more damage than the Borg if you look at things as a whole.

Compared to the billions of lives that the borg have destroyed Q was being at the very worst a mere gigantic pain in the butt.

The Borg's harm to the galaxy concerns the destruction of hundreds of cultures. Once again, you seem to be blind to that fact. Why?

and another one who's much shorter and weaker but who keeps doing nasty things all the time, you'll be more wary of the strong one? Strange logic.

If the shorter one is always beaten off and you always come up with a weapon to destroy them every time...yeah, the strong guy who kills more people when he DOES do stuff is the bigger threat.

Really, the Feds should be all "Okay, these Borg are a danger but we've faced worse and survived so let's keep that in mind."

Instead of acting like the Borg are some super-threat and they've never encountered beings that powerful before.

Hell, all it took to destroy the Borg ship in "Descent" was a skeleton crew.

I can guarantee that if Voyager had done that first (destroy a Borg Cube with a solar flare) then the audience would be up in arms over how a solar flare shouldn't have had the power to even scratch a Borg Cube.

You know as well as I do that in descent it wasn't really the borg that were the enemy but a mere offshoot controlled by the crazy self-centered Lore, IE a bunch of uprooted drones that were desperate enough to follow blindly the first demented android that came along...

 

[bbjeg]

How can you even compare him (Q) to the borg?

In terms of power and how he could easily destroy Humanity (and tried at least once, taking the Galaxy with them), yes I do put him above the Borg. Who can be beaten on their own terms.

As I said before, Q never killed anyone. Though he judged humanity, based on his later appearances, he's just a dick and probably wouldn't have followed through with it. He even saved humanity (and the galaxy) in All Good Things. The worst he ever done was put people in harm's way. The worst the Borg have done is enslave thousands of solar systems. Regardless that they can be beaten on their terms, they have definitely been the bigger threat.

 

[Anwar]

If he could do that why would he need to even trap them in the first place? In fact, if he could do that, the whole galaxy is his oyster, why does he need to experiment on the Enterprise alone, when he has the billions of beings that populate the whole galaxy.

Same reason any God Alien in Trek keeps going after the Enterprise (of various eras) instead of someone else. Conceit of the genre.

Compared to the billions of lives that the borg have destroyed Q was being at the very worst a mere gigantic pain in the butt.

He's seen as some kind of Chaos God by hundreds of cultures and done lots of nasty stuff. It's just not mentioned too much.

The Borg's harm to the galaxy concerns the destruction of hundreds of cultures. Once again, you seem to be blind to that fact. Why?

Because compared to some Aliens encountered their power amounts to nothing. They'll piss off the wrong people eventually and be obliterated because of their inability to not be hostile.

Imagine if the Borg attacked the planet the Douwd was living on in "The Survivors". Yeah.

The problem with the Borg was making them out to be something worse than they were. They should be seen as a big threat, but not some Universal Mega-Threat that you can't beat off or repel. Just one that takes a lot of effort to fight off.

Hell, the only reason they're seen as so tough was because they only ever made one REAL appearance in TNG's TV series.

They are most NOT a force of nature or the "end of existence". Just really tough Cyborgs.

Like how Doctor Who portrays the Daleks.

You know as well as I do that in descent it wasn't really the borg that were the enemy but a mere offshoot controlled by the crazy self-centered Lore, IE a bunch of uprooted drones that were desperate enough to follow blindly the first demented android that came along...

They had all the same power as the Borg, yet no one cared their ship was destroyed by something as "mere" as a solar flare. Their ship was equal to a Cube and no one cared it got destroyed.

And yet in Voyager they can't even destroy a PROBE SHIP without being critiqued.

I swear, if Voyager encountering and destroying that one PROBE SHIP had been the ONE AND ONLY appearance of the Borg in Voyager then the reaction would still be how the Borg were forever ruined.

You just can't win.

 

[bbjeg]

...The Borg Cube couldn't even destroy ONE planet, and all it took the stop the Borg Cube in BOBW WAS one ship (the Enterprise) with ingenuity...

The Borg have destroyed planets. You are not giving the Borg the credit they're due.

This isn't the best picture but it's close enough. Just compare the size of Borg space to the Dominion.

Spoiler: Big Picture

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

How can you even compare him (Q) to the borg?

In terms of power and how he could easily destroy Humanity (and tried at least once, taking the Galaxy with them), yes I do put him above the Borg. Who can be beaten on their own terms.

As I said before, Q never killed anyone. Though he judged humanity, based on his later appearances, he's just a dick and probably wouldn't have followed through with it. He even saved humanity (and the galaxy) in All Good Things. The worst he ever done was put people in harm's way. The worst the Borg have done is enslave thousands of solar systems. Regardless that they can be beaten on their terms, they have definitely been the bigger threat.

That's very close to what I think of it.