Can we just pretend that Voyager never happened?

[hux]

Kes made telepathic contact with Species 8472 and knows that they plan to purge all life from our galaxy which they view as 'unclean'. She tells the Voyager crew this. Who started the war is fairly insignificant compared to this. The fact remains that Species 8472 have no intention at stopping with just defeating the Borg.

Has Starfleet's position on helping one species annihilate another generally rested on one crew member having a bad feeling about them??

Therefore, by your reckoning, if Janeway hadn't allied with the Borg then Voyager would potentially have been responsible for the end of all life in the galaxy.

As it stands, again by your reckoning, they are actually responsible for saving all life in the entire galaxy with the exception of anyone assimilated by the Borg.

You're ignoring "in the flesh" (wish i could) but sorry, it happened. Species 8472 are not malevolent destroyers intent on purging our galaxy. They're actually very reasonable, articulate and considerate and sweet and funny etc etc

The fact that they're really pissed off with everyone in non fluidic space just after they've been attacked by a species (the Borg) from non fluidic space, is hardly a convincing argument for saying that they're pure evil

Imagine if you came home to find your mother violently beaten by a man who's running away down the street and you shout...."i'm gonna f**ing rip your face off". Does that mean the neighbours who hear you shout that should assume that you're a violent face ripper at all times without any exceptions

"In the flesh" made Kes look like an idiot and made Janeway look psychotic for basing such a violent, damaging, genocidal plan on the confused mental abilities of a child

Oh and it made species 8472 suck too

But like it not......it happened

 

[Makarov]

Janeway should have listened to Chakotay and not dealt with the borg... it flies in the face of her previous position to stick to principles rather than put getting home first.

However at the time it seemed like 8472 were even worse than the borg, so I don't blame her. But strengthening the Borg's position is a big no no. Picard would call Janeway into his ready room and give her a verbal beat down for her choices there. She would try to explain and then Picard would draw the line.

 

[Lt. Marseille]

You're ignoring "in the flesh"

I assure you I'm not. One of the aliens in that actually poisons itself because its phobia of humans is so strong. Species 8472 are actually plotting to destroy Star Fleet in that episode. The aliens they encounter in that episode are shown to have been living a human life for an extended period and some of them (by no means all) have managed to gain a degree of empathy for them as a result. At the end the Boothby alien makes it clear that persuading his superiors that humans aren't their enemy will be a tall order.

Furthermore Species 90210 was never made out to be pure evil. Janeway prevented the Borg from committing genocide against them and one of the reasons was that it was actually the Borg that kicked the conflict off. They were presented as wanting to annihilate us though and In the Flesh is consistent with that.

I do agree that In the Flesh was a bit too 'easy' and that it did make them a bit more 'warm and cuddly' than it should have done though (I quite like the ep though -Ellen Tigh!).

 

[Guy Gardener]

Prime Directive/Non Interference policy.

Although the Federation is at War with the Borg which should void the above?

An alliance with the Borg sounds like something you'd need a dozen Admirals and the Diplomatic corps to pull off, not a hand shake.

Janeway bargained to be escorted/towed at regular warp for ten years to the other edge of Borg space, and still 50 years from Earthspace, when frsically the Federation is only 3 hours away at transwarp speeds.

Idiot.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You're ignoring "in the flesh"

I assure you I'm not. One of the aliens in that actually poisons itself because its phobia of humans is so strong. Species 8472 are actually plotting to destroy Star Fleet in that episode. The aliens they encounter in that episode are shown to have been living a human life for an extended period and some of them (by no means all) have managed to gain a degree of empathy for them as a result. At the end the Boothby alien makes it clear that persuading his superiors that humans aren't their enemy will be a tall order.

Furthermore Species 90210 was never made out to be pure evil. Janeway prevented the Borg from committing genocide against them and one of the reasons was that it was actually the Borg that kicked the conflict off. They were presented as wanting to annihilate us though and In the Flesh is consistent with that.

I do agree that In the Flesh was a bit too 'easy' and that it did make them a bit more 'warm and cuddly' than it should have done though (I quite like the ep though -Ellen Tigh!).

Even In the Flesh did not ignore Scorpion.

SEVEN: Your galaxy will be purged. Sound familiar?
BULLOCK: We were only trying to defend ourselves.

 

[hux]

I assure you I'm not. One of the aliens in that actually poisons itself because its phobia of humans is so strong.

Yes!!

Because humans went into their space and slaughtered them with a weapon of mass destruction. They had every right to be paranoid and fearful of humans. His reaction is not one of a malevolent aggressor....it is the reaction of terrified victim!

And what was Janeway's hatred of them based on.....her justification for wanting to kill them without any greater detailed discussion.....that's right, a confused little girl who said it was ok cos they were a bit mean

Species 8472 are actually plotting to destroy Star Fleet in that episode.

No they're not, they're trying to understand the violent race that attacked them in their own space without provocation. They're planning on ways to defend themselves from what they see as a massive threat to their survival....which episodes did you watch?

Janeway prevented the Borg from committing genocide against them and one of the reasons was that it was actually the Borg that kicked the conflict off.

No, Chakotay forced psycho Janeway to accept that she was wrong (something she still didn't initially want to do even after finding out the Borg started the war)

They were presented as wanting to annihilate us though and In the Flesh is consistent with that.

Where?

In the Flesh only tells us that they were a terrified species and that this terror was based on being attacked by the Borg and then suddenly by Janeway and her weapon of mass destruction

I honestly find it mind bendingly perplexing that anyone can defend the madness of Janeway in Scorpion

 

[Guy Gardener]

That training camp was not a sociological experiment, it was a full immersion training camp for espionage. If that espionage resulted in gathering reasons to exterminate humanity, so be it. But it's clear that they were taking baby steps.

I just wonder if it's harder for doppleganger spies to replace human beings or already entrenched doppleganger spies?

Imgaine an 8472 trying to replace some dude at Starfleet Command who is really a changeling, who Starfleet Security was already keeping tabs on because that bloke was a surgically altered Klingon from years back they'd always been feeding misinformaiton to.

 

[fireproof78]

That training camp was not a sociological experiment, it was a full immersion training camp for espionage. If that espionage resulted in gathering reasons to exterminate humanity, so be it. But it's clear that they were taking baby steps.

I just wonder if it's harder for doppleganger spies to replace human beings or already entrenched doppleganger spies?

Imgaine an 8472 trying to replace some dude at Starfleet Command who is really a changeling, who Starfleet Security was already keeping tabs on because that bloke was a surgically altered Klingon from years back they'd always been feeding misinformaiton to.

"No wonder these aliens are so angry. They are constantly spying on each other-the villians!"

I'm glad others have brought up the fact that Species 8472 was engaged in espionage activities and not plotting a full scale invasion of the Federation. In point of fact, Species 8472 expected to be invaded the moment that Voyager discovered them.

In addition, regarding Scorpion, given what we find out about 8472, as well as Starfleet regulations, Janeway should be court martialed for not following a regualtion she quoted in "In the Flesh"

Captain Janeway: Directive 010: "Before engaging alien species in battle, any and all attempts to make first contact and achieve non-military resolution must be made."

"In the Flesh" presents a xenophobic species (nothing new to Trek, by far) that was afraid for its survival. Regardless of its views on humanity, Voyager did the diplomacy game no favors by allying with the provocateurs in the war.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Let's not forget that 8472 was too stupid to know that everyone on Earth is 50 years away at maximum warp.

How could they fabricate a copy of the Academy, and probably the classes teaching that the apex of Federation technology believes that warp 9.3 is a sweet cruising speed, swift enough to jet anywhere they think worth invading, unless bunnyhopping through fluidic space would cut the trip down to hours?

Did Janeway ask if fludic space had a workaround that was geometrically faster than warping normal space?

Idiot.

 

[Lynx]

Voyager is apart of trek and so is enterprise, ok as fan we didn't like these 2 series as much but it like star wars epsiodes 1,2,3,everyone hated those movies but they are apart of the franchise so pretending that voyager didn't happen is wrong,just like TNG and DS9 ana the original series they all got faults but how many people are complaining about them.

I have to agree with you.

Of all Star Trek, there is only one episode which I pretend never happened.

 

[MacLeod]

Voyager is apart of trek and so is enterprise, ok as fan we didn't like these 2 series as much but it like star wars epsiodes 1,2,3,everyone hated those movies but they are apart of the franchise so pretending that voyager didn't happen is wrong,just like TNG and DS9 ana the original series they all got faults but how many people are complaining about them.

I have to agree with you.

Of all Star Trek, there is only one episode which I pretend never happened.

I could thing of at least two and possible one per series if I had to.


Which gives me an idea for a thread which episode(s) would you de-canonise if you could.

 

[Anwar]

That training camp was not a sociological experiment, it was a full immersion training camp for espionage. If that espionage resulted in gathering reasons to exterminate humanity, so be it. But it's clear that they were taking baby steps.

I just wonder if it's harder for doppleganger spies to replace human beings or already entrenched doppleganger spies?

Imgaine an 8472 trying to replace some dude at Starfleet Command who is really a changeling, who Starfleet Security was already keeping tabs on because that bloke was a surgically altered Klingon from years back they'd always been feeding misinformaiton to.

"No wonder these aliens are so angry. They are constantly spying on each other-the villians!"

I'm glad others have brought up the fact that Species 8472 was engaged in espionage activities and not plotting a full scale invasion of the Federation. In point of fact, Species 8472 expected to be invaded the moment that Voyager discovered them.

In addition, regarding Scorpion, given what we find out about 8472, as well as Starfleet regulations, Janeway should be court martialed for not following a regualtion she quoted in "In the Flesh"

Captain Janeway: Directive 010: "Before engaging alien species in battle, any and all attempts to make first contact and achieve non-military resolution must be made."

"In the Flesh" presents a xenophobic species (nothing new to Trek, by far) that was afraid for its survival. Regardless of its views on humanity, Voyager did the diplomacy game no favors by allying with the provocateurs in the war.

It was either that or death, the 8472 were out to kill them as well.

 

[fireproof78]

Hmm...to quote Janeway, "There are always alternatives to war."

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I love the doctor episodes, like Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy... a very entertaining episode.

 

[Anwar]

Hmm...to quote Janeway, "There are always alternatives to war."

Tell that to the Dominion.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Dominion didn't want to go to war with the Federation.

They just wanted their enemies reduced to a fine powder.

War was only a means to an end.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

The Dominion didn't want to go to war with the Federation.

They just wanted their enemies reduced to a fine powder.

War was only a means to an end.

They're very practical, in a way.

 

[fireproof78]

Hmm...to quote Janeway, "There are always alternatives to war."

Tell that to the Dominion.

Given that the Federation attempted diplomacy with the Dominion, I would say that they actually attempted the alternatives before going to war.

Voyager, on the other hand, took one look at 8472 and said, "Hey, I have an idea! Let's align ourselves with our mortal enemies!"

The point is, Voyager didn't attempt diplomacy beyond lip service. To quote another Trek film:

James T. Kirk: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Spock: An Arabic proverb attributed to a prince who was betrayed and decapitated by his own subjects.
James T. Kirk: Well, still, it's a hell of a quote.

That worked out well...I think

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Hmm...to quote Janeway, "There are always alternatives to war."

Tell that to the Dominion.

Given that the Federation attempted diplomacy with the Dominion, I would say that they actually attempted the alternatives before going to war.

Voyager, on the other hand, took one look at 8472 and said, "Hey, I have an idea! Let's align ourselves with our mortal enemies!"

The point is, Voyager didn't attempt diplomacy beyond lip service. To quote another Trek film:

James T. Kirk: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Spock: An Arabic proverb attributed to a prince who was betrayed and decapitated by his own subjects.
James T. Kirk: Well, still, it's a hell of a quote.

That worked out well...I think

"An eye for an eye will make the world blind." Ghandi.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They had worlds to spare in the 24th century.