The 8472 didn't give them any opportunities for diplomacy, they forced VOY's hand.
Can we just pretend that Voyager never happened?
- Thread starter mahler
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The 8472 didn't give them any opportunities for diplomacy, they forced VOY's hand.
According to Kes' perhaps faulty interpretation of their thoughts but when they met them in the flesh they saw that they weren't that unreasonable. The problem is that Janeway decided an alliance with the borg with the terrible consequences we know based on very flimsy evidence, Kinda like bush and his so called weapons of mass destruction that were never found...
They were figuring out how to destroy the Borg.
If Janeway had waited for them to take a fiver after fully exterminating the Borg Menace from the Galaxy, maybe that was the time for diplomacy?
Imagine you have two people tied up in your basement and they're both screaming at you to stop, even though you're only stabbing one of them a lot. Now obviously you're going to be winded, and need a moment to work up a second wind before you start stabbing the second person. This moment of Calm in between hacking is when the second victim should make their case because you don't have as much or any momentum behind you as yet. Hell, if you're both having a cigarette, of course you're going to talk before you get back to taking care of business.
If Janeway had waited for them to take a fiver after fully exterminating the Borg Menace from the Galaxy, maybe that was the time for diplomacy?
Imagine you have two people tied up in your basement and they're both screaming at you to stop, even though you're only stabbing one of them a lot. Now obviously you're going to be winded, and need a moment to work up a second wind before you start stabbing the second person. This moment of Calm in between hacking is when the second victim should make their case because you don't have as much or any momentum behind you as yet. Hell, if you're both having a cigarette, of course you're going to talk before you get back to taking care of business.
Before Voyager gave them a hand, the borg were scared shitless, they were certain that they wouldn't last more than a few days against 8472. It's like an exterminator ridding you of all the rats in your basement at once! Janeway, really screwed up this time!
8472 was winning every engagement, but they still had to go through the motions of destroying hundreds of thousands of more Cubes and thousands of planets and trillions of Drones.
It would have taken Years for the Borg to admit that they were extinct, which is kinda the timeline explained when Janeway was trying to organize Borg chaperones to lead her through Borgspace at regular warp speed for the next 10 years.
It would have taken Years for the Borg to admit that they were extinct, which is kinda the timeline explained when Janeway was trying to organize Borg chaperones to lead her through Borgspace at regular warp speed for the next 10 years.
Janeway also continued along a path to ally with the Borg, even after seeing what 8472 could do, rather than withdrawing.
Regardless of Kes' visions, the sensible thing to do would be to stay out of a conflict and see how the dust settles. Instead, she chooses sides, and does little to ensure any sort of diplomatic relations.
I mean, the joke from the old Star Trek song is Kirk's line "We come in peace-shoot to kill" should be a spoof, not a motto
Voyager had every opportunity to get away from 8472 and the war the Borg started, but didn't.
Regardless of Kes' visions, the sensible thing to do would be to stay out of a conflict and see how the dust settles. Instead, she chooses sides, and does little to ensure any sort of diplomatic relations.
I mean, the joke from the old Star Trek song is Kirk's line "We come in peace-shoot to kill" should be a spoof, not a motto
Voyager had every opportunity to get away from 8472 and the war the Borg started, but didn't.
At the very least she should have waited for 8472 to do some serious damage to the borg before meddling with it. The nanoprobes should have been used to protect Voyager and Voyager only, not the borg. Not to mention that with the borg out of the way, crossing their space would have been really easy. No need to bargain anything.Janeway also continued along a path to ally with the Borg, even after seeing what 8472 could do, rather than withdrawing.
Regardless of Kes' visions, the sensible thing to do would be to stay out of a conflict and see how the dust settles. Instead, she chooses sides, and does little to ensure any sort of diplomatic relations.
I mean, the joke from the old Star Trek song is Kirk's line "We come in peace-shoot to kill" should be a spoof, not a motto
Voyager had every opportunity to get away from 8472 and the war the Borg started, but didn't.
Not necessarily. Given the fact that Voyager was able to chase 8472 back to fluidic space, where they are not heard from again until "In the Flesh" indicating that the "kill all humans!" we get from Kes may not be accurate.
I think the threat of 8472 is real, but overblown, and does not require Voyager to ally with the Borg to deal with them.
I think the threat of 8472 is real, but overblown, and does not require Voyager to ally with the Borg to deal with them.
8472 said the Borg was a good start, and then they were going to purge the galaxy.
That might mean all sentient life, it might mean all life, or it might mean every sun.
Look at the war with the Cybermen 10's of centuries after the 10th planet attacked Earth, the only weapon that works against the Cyberrace is blowing up the stars and planets it's Armies seem to be closest to standing on. A war of attrition that blacked out multiple Galaxies before the Cybermen took a hint.
8472 had to be stopped then when Janeway first became aware, while they only had a tiny beachhead and they hadn't yet garrisoned half the Delta Quadrant with 3/4s of a million bioships with a rolling plan of mass genocides drawn out.
So what if they urned out to be harmless?
She had bad intelligence, that doesn't make Kathryn Janeway a liar.
That might mean all sentient life, it might mean all life, or it might mean every sun.
Look at the war with the Cybermen 10's of centuries after the 10th planet attacked Earth, the only weapon that works against the Cyberrace is blowing up the stars and planets it's Armies seem to be closest to standing on. A war of attrition that blacked out multiple Galaxies before the Cybermen took a hint.
8472 had to be stopped then when Janeway first became aware, while they only had a tiny beachhead and they hadn't yet garrisoned half the Delta Quadrant with 3/4s of a million bioships with a rolling plan of mass genocides drawn out.
So what if they urned out to be harmless?
She had bad intelligence, that doesn't make Kathryn Janeway a liar.
Except it didn't. We know from "In The Flesh" that 8472 wasn't as malevolent as the borg wanted Janeway to believe. As Chakotay said, she let herself be manipulated into aiding the worst enemmy that the federation has even known, even the Dominion are not as bad as them.
Well, there was no indication of that in "Scorpion" and the 8472 made no attempt to make their less xenophobic tendencies clear.
And the Borg aren't really the big threat everyone thinks they are. The Feds have been running into beings far beyond the Borg for years and always survive.
And the Borg aren't really the big threat everyone thinks they are. The Feds have been running into beings far beyond the Borg for years and always survive.
Neither is 8472, to be fair.
But they're more powerful than the Borg and more willing to do something with their power, which makes them a priority.
It's manifest to me that she jumped the gun on that one. There was no need to hurry to go to the borg's rescue the way she did. They could have stayed back and watched the borg's ranks get a litte thinner, for one thing they would have been in a stronger position and could have asked for the borg to send them directly to the alpha quadrant instead of crossing their space at a snail pace.
I am convinced that they are the worst threat the Galaxy has ever known. They are like a cancer, expanding until there isn't even one planet left that isn't controlled by them. Remember how Arturis talked about the plight of his species and how they had kept the borg at bay for centuries but were finally losing the fight against them.
As opposed to the Borg who assimilate whole worlds?
Although, I imagine that Species 8472 would not be able to adapt to our universe (for lack of another term) and probably suffer a similar fate as the Martians from "War of the Worlds."
Again, some how shoring up the Borg's ability to destroy other species, regardless of the immediate threat, does not strike me as a good idea.
I don't think they even like our universe. They are like fish out of water in it, which is an apt metaphor since they come from fluidic space. There's no vacuum in their space.
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