Spoilers Black Widow grade and discussion thread

[FPAlpha]

Yes, it is doing it quite well. But, the stories never feel like they matter. It's just a launching platform for the next big thing.

And, it's not just a matter of understanding but also engagement with the characters. By Civil War I really couldn't care less about Tony Stark. All of it becomes too long to appreciate the inteconnectiveness that obviously takes a lot of work.

It's manageable which is something that bothers me-I shouldn't have to manage to understand film.

To each their own i guess.. i enjoy this interconnectivity and the payoffs that sometimes happen several movies later. It is great to see the character growth and change - take Tony Stark from Iron Man 1 and the first Avengers movie and compare him to Endgame. His basic character traits are still there but he's developed so much more.

Or that funny " On your left!" from Captain America: Winter Soldier that is used again in Endgame in what was, for me, the biggest Hell Yeah! moment of the movie ( even bigger than Cap being able to wield Mjolnir or Avengers Assemble).

 

[Saul]

What I am hoping to demonstrate is that there is a bigger interest in stories that don't have to be super large and interconnected. The MCU became a very frustrating, nearly homework level research project, to try and follow along with.

That's kinda why I watched it so soon. Marvel has us now. There's a sense that if you don't see it you are missing out on something, continuity or something that leads into another movie or series or some big reveal that will be spoiled if you don't watch it soon enough. I thought since it's the first movie of phase 4 there might be something else to it.
So if anyone is rushing out to see it for the reasons mentioned above don't worry about it. It's not something you absolutely have to see.

 

[fireproof78]

So if anyone is rushing out to see it for the reasons mentioned above don't worry about it. It's not something you absolutely have to see.

I'm rushing to see it because I feel like it actually is worth seeing not because of spoilers or whatever other MCU plagued nonsense.

To each their own i guess.. i enjoy this interconnectivity and the payoffs that sometimes happen several movies later. It is great to see the character growth and change - take Tony Stark from Iron Man 1 and the first Avengers movie and compare him to Endgame. His basic character traits are still there but he's developed so much more.

It would be nice if it felt like it mattered. It sadly took too long to get there for me.

Glad you enjoyed it.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

All of it becomes too long to appreciate the inteconnectiveness that obviously takes a lot of work.

Honest question, before the shows began, was watching 3 movies a year truly feeling like "work"? (And it's not like the shows are lengthy anyways.) Is it a time thing or is it a memory thing? Because most forms of entertainment I can think of can easily take up more of each (long running television series, comic books, video games, anything Star Trek related), but they're still simple entertainment to the majority.

 

[fireproof78]

Honest question, before the shows began, was watching 3 movies a year truly feeling like "work"?

Yes.

Because most forms of entertainment I can think of can easily take up more of each (long running television series, comic books, video games, anything Star Trek related), but they're still simple entertainment to the majority.

Books and video games are different to me than a film. A film is something I see as more of an investment, while a video game I can pick away at. Comics I don't read for the most part. TV is hit and miss.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

And where the hell was the much rumored Tony Stark Cameo?!!

Huh, I never heard that rumor. It would've made much more sense for a surprise Steve Rogers cameo (and for the briefest of moments, I thought we were going to get it).

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re the Red Guardian's tall tales about fighting Cap. Was that a nod to the comics where RG did (I believe) fight Cap, or is there some suggestion of time travel shenanigans that suggest Cap did indeed fight him, only no one remembers?

He was mostly an Avengers villain in his first incarnation. Black Widow’s ex husband, IIRC. She appeared in the Avengers quite a bit in the late 60s. Though not as a member. I don’t recall Cap fighting the RG in my comics reading heyday.

 

[thribs]

Huh, I never heard that rumor. It would've made much more sense for a surprise Steve Rogers cameo (and for the briefest of moments, I thought we were going to get it).

I did think Tony was going to appear at the end to arrest her. It felt like it was building to something.
Speaking of which, that whole ending was very jarring. She’s about to get caught, only for it to jump a few weeks and she seems to be in no trouble.

 

[Noname Given]

...( basically you could get by with only watching the Avengers movies + Civil War.)

Captain America: Civil War was an Avengers movie, make no mistake. Not that I minded.

 

[Noname Given]

To each their own i guess.. i enjoy this interconnectivity and the payoffs that sometimes happen several movies later. It is great to see the character growth and change - take Tony Stark from Iron Man 1 and the first Avengers movie and compare him to Endgame. His basic character traits are still there but he's developed so much more.

Or that funny " On your left!" from Captain America: Winter Soldier that is used again in Endgame in what was, for me, the biggest Hell Yeah! moment of the movie ( even bigger than Cap being able to wield Mjolnir or Avengers Assemble).

I still love the scene in Avengers: Age of Ultron, where Steve Rogers steps up to try his hand at lifting Thor's hammer, and when it budges just a little, you see a worried look on Thor's face.

 

[Kor]

I did think Tony was going to appear at the end to arrest her. It felt like it was building to something.
Speaking of which, that whole ending was very jarring. She’s about to get caught, only for it to jump a few weeks and she seems to be in no trouble.

Yeah, that did feel like a dangling plot thread. Not even a mention of why she wasn't arrested or something.

Kor

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Yeah, that did feel like a dangling plot thread. Not even a mention of why she wasn't arrested or something.

Kor

Director Cate Shortland said an interview (I can't find it now, but I read it sometime yesterday) that she deliberately left that moment as open ended, to let the viewer wonder how Nat got away.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Oh, and was ScarJo’s “Thank you for your cooperation.” a nod to the similarity with Robocop’s similar fourth directive in that scene?

No, it's a reference to her interrogation scenes with Loki and that other Russian bloke at the start of 'Avengers'. Playing helpless and pretending like the subject has the upper hand to squeeze them for information is her signature style. By contrast Yelena would probably just grab some jumper cables...

Ah, I really should go back and do a Marvel rewatch sometime, I've only seen many of them once.

This scene is also the first time we hear mention of "Dreykov's daughter".

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[The Nth Doctor]

Ah, thank you for that. I was looking up the history of Dreykov (i.e. whether he existed before this film) and saw that he had a reference in The Avengers but I couldn't remember where. I figured it was probably this scene but I couldn't remember the details.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Even the Pitch Meeting gets in a few hits on Ike Perlmutter.

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[JD]

I don't really understand where people get the idea that they have to see every MCU movie in order to follow the ones that come after. Yeah, there are references and character bits that build from movie to movie, but most of them are fairly minor and done in a way that it wouldn't really disrupt things if you hadn't seen the ones that came before. Most of the actual stories of the movies themselves are fairly stand alone, and even when they do set up future movies or, it's not done in a way that way you couldn't figure out what is going on if you haven't seen the others.
The only ones I could maybe see being hard to follow if they're your first MCU movies are Infinity War and Endgame, but those two are a special case since they were specially set up the as big finale for this stage of the franchise.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't really understand where people get the idea that they have to see every MCU movie in order to follow the ones that come after. Yeah, there are references and character bits that build from movie to movie, but most of them are fairly minor and done in a way that it wouldn't really disrupt things if you hadn't seen the ones that came before. Most of the actual stories of the movies themselves are fairly stand alone, and even when they do set up future movies or, it's not done in a way that way you couldn't figure out what is going on if you haven't seen the others.
The only ones I could maybe see being hard to follow if they're your first MCU movies are Infinity War and Endgame, but those two are a special case since they were specially set up the as big finale for this stage of the franchise.

Some do. Others do not. Civil War was probably the one that made me go "I need to watch other things first." And, for me, it sucks the enjoyment right out because now I'm revisiting things to study rather than to be entertained or get invested with the characters. It's a delicate balance, once that I thought Marvel did well until Invisible War and Age of Ultron and then it slid quickly away.

 

[thribs]

It’s like Fast and Furious. You need to watch them all to understand the highly cerebral storyline

 

[theenglish]

I don't really understand where people get the idea that they have to see every MCU movie in order to follow the ones that come after. Yeah, there are references and character bits that build from movie to movie, but most of them are fairly minor and done in a way that it wouldn't really disrupt things if you hadn't seen the ones that came before. Most of the actual stories of the movies themselves are fairly stand alone, and even when they do set up future movies or, it's not done in a way that way you couldn't figure out what is going on if you haven't seen the others.
The only ones I could maybe see being hard to follow if they're your first MCU movies are Infinity War and Endgame, but those two are a special case since they were specially set up the as big finale for this stage of the franchise.

I can see people getting pissed off at being spoiled on a previous movie. Ant Man and the Wasp, although being a stand alone movie, shows the new Avengers HQ and has Falcon as being a full Avenger. Sure, it is minor but some people really don't like even those spoilers.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I don't really understand where people get the idea that they have to see every MCU movie in order to follow the ones that come after. Yeah, there are references and character bits that build from movie to movie, but most of them are fairly minor and done in a way that it wouldn't really disrupt things if you hadn't seen the ones that came before.

...because the MCU was intentionally set up to be strung together with its numerous Easter eggs and post-credits scenes to hand-hold the viewers into the coming plots. For example, when Fury is introduced at the end of Iron Man talking about the Avengers, or Stark (in The Incredible Hulk) approaches Ross talking about a "team" being put together, they only existed so potential audiences (especially the majority of movie goers who had no awareness of Marvel's comics or character details) would not think The Avengers just dropped out of nowhere within the overall plot without explaining the participation of certain characters. MCU films only work as stand-alone stories if one were to edit the Easter eggs and other teases from its earliest films, so there's no expectation of a more integrated collection of films.