Spoilers Black Widow grade and discussion thread

[DarKush]

I have to completely disagree. While I'm not her biggest fan (I loathe Seinfeld and Veep was fun but Selina was far from my favorite character), I really enjoyed Julia Louis-Dreyfus' performance both in the post-credits scene and in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

As for not buying her as a "dark, ruthless, or formidable anti-Fury," I would say you've fallen into the classic Doctor-esque trap of underestimating the mad eccentric who is fully capable of handling themselves. I imagine this version of Valentina will be the same and that the comedic effect she displays is just a front. Besides, we've barely seen her and only in the context of recruiting people. We haven't even seen her in action yet.


I also despise Nirvana and I, too, loved that scene. Hell, I didn't realize it was even "Smells Like Teen Spirit" until I saw the credits, but at least I recognized that the song was a cover. I guess I was too busy experiencing the sequence instead of focusing on the song.


Yup, I loved that callback. I broke out in a big grin when I heard her say that. Another huge ego tricked into spilling the beans.

It might very well be a front, but it's not one I find that interesting to look at.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

It might very well be a front, but it's not one I find that interesting to look at.

To each their own. The Doctor Who fan in me loves it.

 

[DarKush]

To each their own. The Doctor Who fan in me loves it.

Glad it works for you. It just grating to me.

 

[theenglish]

Was nothing of the kind. It was a joke Florence Pugh made to Scarlett Johansson that got added to the script.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/m...hansson-florence-pugh-disney-plus-1234975907/

Yeah. That becomes a commentary.

 

[thribs]

Taskmaster was the worst part of the movie. Not so much because of the reveal but the way the character was portrayed.
It felt too much like the Winter Soldier, so it felt very repetitive. There are also comparisons I've seen online of people comparing the character to Deadpool in Wolverine Origins which is funny since they are both mercenaries at Marvel. Taskmaster is probably the second most popular mercenary after Deadpool in fact.
I would have had him be more like the comic version and have him be a SHIELD agent who was with Barton and Nat in Budapest. He was believed killed there only to show up in this as the said mercenary working for the villain.
To showcase his abilities better I would have had him go one on one against each of Nat's family throughout the movie and have him easily beat them. He is then only defeated when they go up against him together at the end; knowing how he copies their moves and so they fight him in unpredictable ways. I wouldn't kill them so he could show up in later projects, like Spider-Man.

I also think Dreykov should have been portrayed better. Remember that scene in Avengers Assemble where Nat pretends to be scared of Loki? I would have had her be genuinely terrified of him. Instead of having that pheromone lock, I would have just had her nerves getting the better of her to take him out. Also having him lose his temper and beat Nat didn't work for me. Just made him look like a fool, which was probably the intention but I wouldn't have done that. Someone who has his own version of Charlie's Angels would be smarter than that.

 

[Kor]

I went and saw this a little while ago. My first cinema outing in 1 1/3 years, and it did not disappoint. I'm glad somebody finally called out that crouch down/head up action pose that appears in every movie.

Kor

 

[Starkers]

I really enjoyed this movie. I am surprised more has not been said about the feminist aspects of the movie. The meta commentaries on BWs sexy poses for example but also in the plot of the story-- the women abducted from around the world and the widows mind controlled by Dreykov, and the subjugation of the widows even before the mind control. Also the scene with Natasha not being able to hurt Dreykov or touch him was definitely a commentary on how women are treated in the real world.

I enjoyed the commentary on family. Family is what we create rather than just our biological relatives.

What was it Dreykov said? "The most abundant resource in the world. Young girls." That was icky.

I had thought about going to the cinema but I'm still not ready to go back. I've been waiting such a long time for a BW film though I couldn't wait until October when it'll be on Disney+ for free so I ponied up the £19.99...

And I'm so glad I did because I bloody loved it. An MCU Bond film in all but name. Loved Scarlett but also adored her 'family' and it says a lot about Johansson's lack of arrogance that the film wasn't just about Nat. Hell Pugh stole so many scenes and Scarlett seemed more than happy for her to do so. Pugh is going to be a big star for a long time to come. Loved her in Little Women, and although I have issues with Midsommer I thought Pugh was phenomenal in that.

I had been a bit iffy of Harbour and Weisz's casting as Nat's parents given neither of them is that much older than Scarlett (Weisz 15 years, Harbour 10) but those opening scenes quickly explained that and clearly both were playing older than they are.

Harbour and Pugh especially were very funny. Guessed the Taskmaster reveal when a certain person in the credits seemed conspicuous by their absence. Never been so thrilled to see a woman break her nose

Re the Red Guardian's tall tales about fighting Cap. Was that a nod to the comics where RG did (I believe) fight Cap, or is there some suggestion of time travel shenanigans that suggest Cap did indeed fight him, only no one remembers?

 

[Captaindemotion]

One thing that does occur to me is that there was definitely another instance of weak MCU villain. Ray Winstone is generally fine but he totally phoned it in here, from the accent onwards. Perhaps they didn’t want anyone too charismatic in the role - some reflection of mediocre men overshadowing brilliant women? - but I can’t help but think that given the Bond comparisons (with Nat watching Moonraker earlier), someone like Timothy Dalton might’ve made him more interesting.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Taskmaster was the worst part of the movie. Not so much because of the reveal but the way the character was portrayed.
It felt too much like the Winter Soldier, so it felt very repetitive.

Its apparent to many viewers that going into this film, aside from it being a Yelena platform / origin movie, it aggressively tried to copy much from the best of all MCU films, which shows the inherent problems made clear when TPB did not know how to make a proper Black Widow film with a story and tone all its own.

I also think Dreykov should have been portrayed better. Remember that scene in Avengers Assemble where Nat pretends to be scared of Loki? I would have had her be genuinely terrified of him. Instead of having that pheromone lock, I would have just had her nerves getting the better of her to take him out.

At the very least, it would have pointed out that even a hardened ex-spy/killer has moments of uncertainty, especially if--in this part of the MCU timeline--she's supposed to be more in touch with her evolving fellings (as opposed to her days a a foreign agent).

 

[arch101]

That's not what i meant. The movie should have been done somewhere in the middle of the first 22 movie arc as the popularity of the character rose from movie to movie. Marvel had the opportunity to lead Hollywood by building up their female superstars and giving them their own movies to helm but they dropped the ball and waited too long.

Thought the same thing when Wonder Woman came out "hey, Marvel- you already HAD Black Widow all set for a solo film- why the wait?"

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Thought the same thing when Wonder Woman came out "hey, Marvel- you already HAD Black Widow all set for a solo film- why the wait?"

Again, because of Ike Perlmutter. Otherwise, it would've happened a lot earlier.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I'm in the camp of "too little, too late". Black Widow missed her moment. First with not having a film prior to Avengers 3 and 4, and again with this film being a middle movie after the character died in Avengers 4.

Comparisons to Captain America TWS don't help. Because I'd rather watch that movie. I was hoping for a Bucky appearance. Since in the comics Nat and Bucky were in a relationship pre and post his brainwashing. There was a blink and you miss it reference to this in Cap 3, as Bucky was making his escape from the prison.

Assassins and lovers for a defunct government. Since they were already tracing Cap 2, why not?

 

[Saul]

For anyone worrying they are missing out on this or that they need to see this before the next marvel movie or TV show the answer is you don't. You can watch this a year later or 10 years later, it has no significance in the MCU unless filling in backstory or developing new characters are something you feel you need to see now. Don't plonk down $30 on disney plus anyway.

I liked 'Blackwidow' it's a good action movie, the most unmarvel movie, it's more like a spy movie. Of all the female Superhero movies it's my favorite, It didn't let me down like Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel did but it really feels insignificant. There are parts of the plot that make you question "why" and there are chunks of the film that could be taken out. Remove Red Guardian and the movie would play out the same, he is just an unnecessary excuse for an action scene and comedy. And why do comedy about characters who had a tragic upbringing and were trained to kill as children? Either make this a lighthearted marvel movie that doesn't bring those aspects of the character into play or make a dark, serious marvel movie that does.The after credits scene, terrible, this is how you say goodbye to the character? Turning it into a lighthearted moment?

And where the hell was the much rumored Tony Stark Cameo?!!

 

[fireproof78]

it has no significance in the MCU unless filling in backstory or developing new characters are something you feel you need to see now. Don't plonk down $30 on disney plus anyway.

The fact that it is insignificant to the MCU is enough for me to drop money to watch it.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The fact that it is insignificant to the MCU is enough for me to drop money to watch it.

 

[Saul]

If this had been before she joined Avengers I might have found it interesting. Make taskmaster Hawkeye. See how she became a better person.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

The fact that it is insignificant to the MCU is enough for me to drop money to watch it.

That'll show 'em!

 

[fireproof78]

If this had been before she joined Avengers I might have found it interesting. Make taskmaster Hawkeye. See how she became a better person.

That'll show 'em!

What I am hoping to demonstrate is that there is a bigger interest in stories that don't have to be super large and interconnected. The MCU became a very frustrating, nearly homework level research project, to try and follow along with. Others might enjoy it but Civil War pretty much left me going "This sucks" and walking away from the sheer amount of stuff to follow along with. It was interesting, it wasn't enjoyable; it was homework.

So, yes, that will show them and maybe, just maybe, there will be a Marvel film that I like again. Doubtful but this is more my speed.

 

[FPAlpha]

What I am hoping to demonstrate is that there is a bigger interest in stories that don't have to be super large and interconnected. The MCU became a very frustrating, nearly homework level research project, to try and follow along with. Others might enjoy it but Civil War pretty much left me going "This sucks" and walking away from the sheer amount of stuff to follow along with. It was interesting, it wasn't enjoyable; it was homework.

So, yes, that will show them and maybe, just maybe, there will be a Marvel film that I like again. Doubtful but this is more my speed.

On the other side there's big Marvel fans like me who don't mind and eagerly await every new movie. I feel the MCU is doing this inteconnectivity well enough so you basically have only to watch a handful of movies to understand the grand finale Infiniity War and Endgame ( basically you could get by with only watching the Avengers movies + Civil War). You would lose a lot of the inside jokes and some scenes may leave you scratching your head but i think it's manageable.

Anyway - looking around Youtube it seems Yelena Belova/Florence Pugh is the breakout star of the movie and she really held her own against the big names like Scarlett, Rachel Weisz and David Harbour. I loved the character, the end scene of her visiting Natasha's grave and what she's about to do in Hawkeye. I hope they keep her around and find her a team, possibly the new Avengers team should Marvel decide to rebuild it once they have enough new characters.

 

[fireproof78]

On the other side there's big Marvel fans like me who don't mind and eagerly await every new movie. I feel the MCU is doing this inteconnectivity well enough so you basically have only to watch a handful of movies to understand the grand finale Infiniity War and Endgame ( basically you could get by with only watching the Avengers movies + Civil War). You would lose a lot of the inside jokes and some scenes may leave you scratching your head but i think it's manageable.

Yes, it is doing it quite well. But, the stories never feel like they matter. It's just a launching platform for the next big thing.

And, it's not just a matter of understanding but also engagement with the characters. By Civil War I really couldn't care less about Tony Stark. All of it becomes too long to appreciate the inteconnectiveness that obviously takes a lot of work.

It's manageable which is something that bothers me-I shouldn't have to manage to understand film.