Spoilers Black Widow grade and discussion thread

[Mr. Adventure]

Some of the locations really evoked Falcon and the WS, especially that circular fountain which put me in mind of the infamous shield scene. Though I suppose those are probably a dime a dozen in Europe?

It was solid but didn't really hold any surprises. It feels weird to damn a movie for being a very competent clone of many summer blockbuster action movies but there you go. I can't think of a bad moment but I can't think of anything that surprised me or that I found interesting or remarkable either. You saw the trailer, you've seen the movie. Being timed as it was, not only late with covid but coming after Endgame and all it just feels like it belonged earlier in the series.

That being said, I did enjoy David Harbour's character and probably would've enjoyed a movie about him. The lack of slickness was appealing among the shininess of the rest.

Anyone know the origin of the huge white all caps location title cards? Been seeing it lately, I'm thinking Wes Anderson did it first but not sure. Seen it on Preacher and other shows and movies. Looking online it seems CA: Civil War, Mindhunter and Killing Eve have done it as well among others. I think it's Preacher that's bring it home for me.

JLD really hamming it up in the post-credits. I think Marvel may have misjudged what a (not) big deal getting her. Like it seems people were surprised but not really wowed by her being in the MCU.

The opening credits sequence was horrible. It also featured the worst, slowest, whiniest, angsty, most emo cover of a Nirvana song you've ever heard. I mean, imagine making the original Nirvana track seem like ska-band happiness by comparison.

Really, what is this, a Snyder film?

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

I liked it a lot, the only thing that really bothered me was her durability super power. Once or twice is fine for suspension of disbelief, but she had super serum levels of power that she would literally be up and running away from (that fall where she hit EVERY obstacle on the way down was bothersome, especially when you compare to the other widow who broke her leg with the cleaner fall which got her killed)

The opening credits sequence was horrible. It also featured the worst, slowest, whiniest, angsty, most emo cover of a Nirvana song you've ever heard. I mean, imagine making the original Nirvana track seem like ska-band happiness by comparison. The first twenty minutes of this movie left me wondering if it wasn't going to be a walk-out sort of turkey.

I loved the scene and I despise Nirvana. It worked perfectly and went really well with what we saw. Her childhood was unimaginably awful, in case the visuals didn't clue you in without the song.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Oh, and was ScarJo’s “Thank you for your cooperation.” a nod to the similarity with Robocop’s similar fourth directive in that scene?

 

[Reverend]

I really enjoyed it. Good story, great chemistry, classic super-espionage movie. Yes it got the usual levels of ridiculous at the end, but they didn't show a clip from 'Moonraker' at the top of the film for nothing!

The only criticism I have is that the movie didn't seem to know how to end the dramatic character based scenes other than to interrupt it with yet another action set piece. It started to get comical, but not intentionally I suspect.

I liked it a lot, the only thing that really bothered me was her durability super power. Once or twice is fine for suspension of disbelief, but she had super serum levels of power that she would literally be up and running away from (that fall where she hit EVERY obstacle on the way down was bothersome, especially when you compare to the other widow who broke her leg with the cleaner fall which got her killed)

Hitting things one the way down makes one MORE likely to survive the fall, not less. Each impact bleeds away kinetic energy rather than having it all it at once in a "clean" fall. Also the other widow didn't die from the impact, she just broker her leg. Being forced to use all her stingers all at once to the temple is what killed her.

And as we saw from all the bruising, Natasha wasn't "super-serum levels of durability", she just has a high pain threshold thanks to her conditioning and years of experience.

Oh, and was ScarJo’s “Thank you for your cooperation.” a nod to the similarity with Robocop’s similar fourth directive in that scene?

No, it's a reference to her interrogation scenes with Loki and that other Russian bloke at the start of 'Avengers'. Playing helpless and pretending like the subject has the upper hand to squeeze them for information is her signature style. By contrast Yelena would probably just grab some jumper cables...

 

[Claudia]

I saw it yesterday... and felt quite underwhelmed, to be honest.

Actionwise it's a good movie, the effects are of course top-notch, not that I would expect anything less from the MCU. But IMO the story simply feels like a filler, a "OMG, Black Widow didn't get her own movie so far, we have to remedy that... and let's introduce the future carrier of the Black Widow-moniker in it... and let's make a movie where all the male characters are idiots...". Quite frankly, this movie should have come out far earlier, at the latest after CW (and I know there are reasons it didn't), but this feels like a sort of afterthought to a character that's long dead.

First of all, I think the movie suffers from the fact that we know Natasha's going to come out of it unscathed. She isn't in any danger here, even the threat of being reprogrammed is a moot one. Then I thought Johansson portrayed her a bit too much like post-Snap, the melancholy... it doesn't fit with my impression of her at the end of CW. If she had been shown to do some soul-searching up in Norway, okay (why join Tony at first, then Steve, why not tell Tony about the WS which would have made the whole CW-affair a moot point), but we don't get to see that.

Secondly, to me the second flaw is all the talk about family, and the Avengers being a family... erm... where exactly are the Avengers a family? Granted, part of the Avengers, like Barton, Steve and her are portrayed as being close, and she shares the let's find Bucky issue with Wilson as well... but the others? Thor isn't on Earth for the most part, the less said about that "romance" that came out of the left field with Bruce the better (and well, it's not as though she didn't force the Hulk out of him... as did Wanda... wow, what a family-like behaviour), and let's not mention Tony who can pay for everything, build everything... but let's not tell him about the WS killing his parents (whereas he's not allowed to keep secrets)... Definitely a very healthy and happy family. I'll grant you that Natasha's "real" family isn't any better, but not always when people come together for a purpose it automatically is a "family". However, she rejoined her family in the end anyway - again little suprise there after we already see her back with Steve and the others in Infinity War.

I really liked Yelena - and I think Pugh outshone Johansson in pretty much every scene. She appeared lively and active, and I'm looking forward to seeing more of her. As I'd like to see more of the other red room-women. What will happen to them next? The only issue I have with all the programming, chemical or otherwise, is that it's all been done before. All the mind-manipulation and brain-washing within the MCU... Loki, Bucky, Wanda, the Red Room... at some point it gets a bit tiresome.

So, overall a rather average movie with little to no original ideas... as said before, Natasha should have had her movie way before. But this movie's not worthy of her story-wise, placing with in the MCU-wise, character-wise, it mainly introduces Pugh's character, and that could have been done within the Hawkeye-series just as easily. As it stands now, this is unfortunately one of the weaker entries of the MCU.

 

[John Clark]

Saw it last night at the cinema (Late showing and quite a few there, but well distanced)

Generally I enjoyed it (and it absolutely should have happened earlier, but we know why not ). It's probably not in my top three marvel films, but I'm still going to blu it when it comes out.

I'd only seen Florence Pugh in The Little Drummer Girl before now but she's a welcome addition.
David Harbour was fun, but mostly comic relief.

I felt Rachel Weisz was a little wasted though and they could also have done more with Ray Winstone and the person who played Taskmaster (Yes, I know who it is, but avoiding spoilers )

 

[DarKush]

Some of the locations really evoked Falcon and the WS, especially that circular fountain which put me in mind of the infamous shield scene. Though I suppose those are probably a dime a dozen in Europe?

It was solid but didn't really hold any surprises. It feels weird to damn a movie for being a very competent clone of many summer blockbuster action movies but there you go. I can't think of a bad moment but I can't think of anything that surprised me or that I found interesting or remarkable either. You saw the trailer, you've seen the movie. Being timed as it was, not only late with covid but coming after Endgame and all it just feels like it belonged earlier in the series.

That being said, I did enjoy David Harbour's character and probably would've enjoyed a movie about him. The lack of slickness was appealing among the shininess of the rest.

Anyone know the origin of the huge white all caps location title cards? Been seeing it lately, I'm thinking Wes Anderson did it first but not sure. Seen it on Preacher and other shows and movies. Looking online it seems CA: Civil War, Mindhunter and Killing Eve have done it as well among others. I think it's Preacher that's bring it home for me.

JLD really hamming it up in the post-credits. I think Marvel may have misjudged what a (not) big deal getting her. Like it seems people were surprised but not really wowed by her being in the MCU.


Really, what is this, a Snyder film?

I haven't seen the movie, but I had to give this a like for what you said about JLD. I found her scenes in Falcon & Winter Soldier not funny and a bit off putting, there was some awkward energy there and I'm not sure if that was intentional, or just came from discomfort. Anyway it made me not really connect with her character. I don't buy her as a dark, ruthless, or formidable anti-Fury. There's nothing really foreboding about her character that I've seen yet, and from what I've read about the post credits scene that still is the case.

 

[Noname Given]

I liked it a lot, the only thing that really bothered me was her durability super power. Once or twice is fine for suspension of disbelief, but she had super serum levels of power that she would literally be up and running away from (that fall where she hit EVERY obstacle on the way down was bothersome, especially when you compare to the other widow who broke her leg with the cleaner fall which got her killed)

But she's always been shown with that level of power/ability. She was shown holding her own against creatures and monsters that were giving Captain America problems in both Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame. The same with the Falcon.

The MCU in general often has an issue with showing 'normals' in suits fighting way above their comic book power levels.

Hell, in Captain America Winter Soldier, In my opinion they had Batroc giving Captain America way more problems in thier man to man fight than he should have, given the only thing Batroc was known for was being a master of the fighting art of Savate. He wasn't enhanced in any way.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

JLD really hamming it up in the post-credits. I think Marvel may have misjudged what a (not) big deal getting her. Like it seems people were surprised but not really wowed by her being in the MCU.

I haven't seen the movie, but I had to give this a like for what you said about JLD. I found her scenes in Falcon & Winter Soldier not funny and a bit off putting, there was some awkward energy there and I'm not sure if that was intentional, or just came from discomfort. Anyway it made me not really connect with her character. I don't buy her as a dark, ruthless, or formidable anti-Fury. There's nothing really foreboding about her character that I've seen yet, and from what I've read about the post credits scene that still is the case.

I have to completely disagree. While I'm not her biggest fan (I loathe Seinfeld and Veep was fun but Selina was far from my favorite character), I really enjoyed Julia Louis-Dreyfus' performance both in the post-credits scene and in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

As for not buying her as a "dark, ruthless, or formidable anti-Fury," I would say you've fallen into the classic Doctor-esque trap of underestimating the mad eccentric who is fully capable of handling themselves. I imagine this version of Valentina will be the same and that the comedic effect she displays is just a front. Besides, we've barely seen her and only in the context of recruiting people. We haven't even seen her in action yet.

I loved the scene and I despise Nirvana. It worked perfectly and went really well with what we saw. Her childhood was unimaginably awful, in case the visuals didn't clue you in without the song.

I also despise Nirvana and I, too, loved that scene. Hell, I didn't realize it was even "Smells Like Teen Spirit" until I saw the credits, but at least I recognized that the song was a cover. I guess I was too busy experiencing the sequence instead of focusing on the song.

No, it's a reference to her interrogation scenes with Loki and that other Russian bloke at the start of 'Avengers'. Playing helpless and pretending like the subject has the upper hand to squeeze them for information is her signature style. By contrast Yelena would probably just grab some jumper cables...

Yup, I loved that callback. I broke out in a big grin when I heard her say that. Another huge ego tricked into spilling the beans.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Black Widow

The Good: More about the fact a Black Widow movie was ever greenlit, giving the character her moment in the sun, so to speak.

The Bad: Aside from the direction of complaints (about why the film was not going to happen earlier in the MCU production history), the film is rather underwhelming. Backstory and/or solo films must say the character and/or the story had a reason to be, and the script for this film simply lacks that crucial element. In the end, the film did not take what should have been a deeper dive into Natasha's motivations outside of what others did to her, with the film coming off as just one protracted origin film for Pugh's Yelena, when it was supposed to be a chapter to fill in Black Widow's heretofore unexplained history.

NOTES:
Shortland and the film's editor(s) were trying hard to give this the grit and pace of Captain America - The Winter Soldier, but that was just it: it was obvious that was the goal, but the content was nowhere nearly as engaging to support that kind of approach. Black Widow as a film character deserved a more intriguing series of developmental set-ups in her early MCU appearances, set-ups that had (at its core) the feel of the comic version developed since that first appearance in Tales of Suspense #52, where readers slowly understood there was more to the character, but that curiosity was rewarded with more dedicated build-up.

At the end of it all, Natasha flying off to the remainder of her MCU stories was supposed to be bittersweet--a nod to her acknowledging the Avengers (well, some of them) as her real family, only for that to be short lived, but in order for that scene to have a greater effect, it should have ended there, instead of a post-credits scene teasing the Hawkeye series (and what I imagine will be three or so episodes of a mistaken identity plot).

Black Widow--and Johansson--deserved better.

GRADE: C.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I saw it yesterday... and felt quite underwhelmed, to be honest.

Agreed.

First of all, I think the movie suffers from the fact that we know Natasha's going to come out of it unscathed. She isn't in any danger here, even the threat of being reprogrammed is a moot one. Then I thought Johansson portrayed her a bit too much like post-Snap, the melancholy... it doesn't fit with my impression of her at the end of CW.

Good observation--its as though Johansson could not remove her post Endgame production experience from her mind, so she was far more morose than she needed to be at this film's point in the timeline. How that was not picked up by Shortland or Johansson is a mystery, or a lack of attention to character / story continuity.

Secondly, to me the second flaw is all the talk about family, and the Avengers being a family... erm... where exactly are the Avengers a family? Granted, part of the Avengers, like Barton, Steve and her are portrayed as being close, and she shares the let's find Bucky issue with Wilson as well... but the others?

I believe she was only referring to the characters you mentioned, not Thor or Stark, for example.

I really liked Yelena - and I think Pugh outshone Johansson in pretty much every scene.

...and that was all due to this film being a Yelena "pilot" more than a Black Widow film; its as if the producers already wrote Black Widow off as a secondary character because her fate was sealed, and since Marvel Studios is all about promoting the next show/film, this ended up being a Yelena story.

All the mind-manipulation and brain-washing within the MCU... Loki, Bucky, Wanda, the Red Room... at some point it gets a bit tiresome.

True.

So, overall a rather average movie with little to no original ideas... as said before, Natasha should have had her movie way before. But this movie's not worthy of her story-wise, placing with in the MCU-wise, character-wise, it mainly introduces Pugh's character, and that could have been done within the Hawkeye-series just as easily. As it stands now, this is unfortunately one of the weaker entries of the MCU.

Indeed.

 

[Reverend]

I felt Rachel Weisz was a little wasted though and they could also have done more with Ray Winstone

Totally disagree. Rachel Weisz's comedic timing was impeccable and I like how they played her as a quirky, socially awkward assassin scientist, bordering on high functioning sociopath.
As for Winstone...of all the British heavies out there, you'd think that could have found one that could at least pull off a better Russian accent. Hell, I'd have settled for "consistent", but the North London just kept slipping out, and it kept taking me out of his scenes.

As for not buying her as a "dark, ruthless, or formidable anti-Fury," I would say you've fallen into the classic Doctor-esque trap of underestimating the mad eccentric who is fully capable of handling themselves. I imagine this version of Valentina will be the same and that the comedic effect she displays is just a front. Besides, we've barely seen her and only in the context of recruiting people. We haven't even seen her in action yet.

Personally I don't really see her being able to handle herself to be all that important in this kind of character. I mean she's basically the Marvel Amanda Waller, no? The menace from a person like that isn't how high she can kick, it's how quickly she can drain you bank accounts, how easily she can frame you for pretty much anything, how many snipers she has on you right now, and how the blood splatter won't even break her stride.

I also despise Nirvana and I, too, loved that scene. Hell, I didn't realize it was even "Smells Like Teen Spirit" until I saw the credits, but at least I recognized that the song was a cover. I guess I was too busy experiencing the sequence instead of focusing on the song.

I'm by no means a fan of the song (or Nirvana in general if I'm honest) but having lived though that decade at pretty much that same age, I recognise it for the cultural touchstone that it is. Also it kinda sums up the directionless and almost naïve ambivalence that was most of the 1990's. I kinda miss those times. Things are far too interesting right now.

 

[StCoop]

So Disney have revealed that they pulled in $60 million from the Disney+ release in the first couple of days; and unlike the $80 million it made at the box office they get to keep every penny of that.

I doubt they would have made enough extra in cinemas to cover that $60m if it didn't have the home release, so from a purely financial POV they'd be mad not to make this the norm going forward.

 

[John Clark]

Totally disagree. Rachel Weisz's comedic timing was impeccable and I like how they played her as a quirky, socially awkward assassin scientist, bordering on high functioning sociopath.

Oh, I agree with that. I was saying wasted because she wasn't in it enough

 

[Mr. Adventure]

No, it's a reference to her interrogation scenes with Loki and that other Russian bloke at the start of 'Avengers'. Playing helpless and pretending like the subject has the upper hand to squeeze them for information is her signature style. By contrast Yelena would probably just grab some jumper cables...

Ah, I really should go back and do a Marvel rewatch sometime, I've only seen many of them once.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Black Widow opens with $80 million.

To put that in context, A Quiet Place Part II opened with $47 million as the first big release since vaccinations became widespread. So while $80 might seem low for a summer MCU film, it's pretty damn good all things considered. And that doesn't even count however much Disney+ earned with its Premiere Access (supposedly $60 million but StCoop didn't provide a source).

 

[StCoop]

And that doesn't even count however much Disney+ earned with its Premiere Access (supposedly $60 million but StCoop didn't provide a source).

https://variety.com/2021/film/box-office/marvel-black-widow-box-office-opening-weekend-1235016977/

 

[theenglish]

I really enjoyed this movie. I am surprised more has not been said about the feminist aspects of the movie. The meta commentaries on BWs sexy poses for example but also in the plot of the story-- the women abducted from around the world and the widows mind controlled by Dreykov, and the subjugation of the widows even before the mind control. Also the scene with Natasha not being able to hurt Dreykov or touch him was definitely a commentary on how women are treated in the real world.

I enjoyed the commentary on family. Family is what we create rather than just our biological relatives.

 

[StCoop]

I really enjoyed this movie. I am surprised more has not been said about the feminist aspects of the movie. The meta commentaries on BWs sexy poses for example...

Was nothing of the kind. It was a joke Florence Pugh made to Scarlett Johansson that got added to the script.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/m...hansson-florence-pugh-disney-plus-1234975907/

 

[JD]

That reveal wasn't helped by the fact we spent an extra year waiting for this film and I'm certain I wasn't the only person who wondered who Taskmaster actually was (and I didn't like the one theory I kept seeing: Melina). Antonia's loss of agency tied in well with the rest of the Black Widows but it is a shame that Olga Kurylenko didn't get much to work with and only had one line at the very end.

That's who the actress was. Now I remember seeing her name in the credits, but I had forgotten by the time we got to the reveal watching it, and she seemed familiar but I couldn't figure out who she was.