Bigger Douchebag: Captain Jellico or Commander Riker?

[Salinga]

If you want to talk fishing--or Trek--that's ok by me; otherwise, I won't discuss modern politics here.

Then don't bring such argument in that "it's today superior", since it clearly isn't. If you say, Jellico is superior, because he represents todays "superior" military, I have the right to make clear, that this is nonsense and prove it by stating the current not-so-superior situation.

 

[Spider]

Salinga said:

If you want to talk fishing--or Trek--that's ok by me; otherwise, I won't discuss modern politics here.

Then don't bring such argument in that "it's today superior", since it clearly isn't. If you say, Jellico is superior, because he represents todays "superior" military, I have the right to make clear, that this is nonsense and prove it by stating the current not-so-superior situation.

And what you said here:

If something is a total failure nowadays, it's the US military. Their only goal is to keep the money flow to the war industry.

...is strictly an opinion, of which others might disagree. But not this forum, hopefully.

I would like to keep this thread open, but folks please, don't let discussing Star Trek get you upset. It's a TV show. It's not real life.

 

[Mysterion]

Cutter John said:
Did the writers really intend for Jellico to be the villain of the piece though? He certain managed to win the day through a brilliant bit of strategy. He really did come off as the right man for the job despite being a hard-ass.

Would have been so easy for the writers to have Jellico screw up and let Riker step in and save the day.

I don't know if the writers intended Jellico to be the vuillain, but as I recall the overwhelming fandom reaction when the episodes first aired was that he was. "Oh how can he treat our heroes that way?!", and so on.

I still think that Edward jellico was the best thing that could have happened to that bunch on the Enterprise.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Anwar said:

A beaker full of death said:

DavidFalkayn said:
Again, I think the fault line on the Riker-Jellico divide rests on familiarity with the military, its culture, and its institutions. I would contend that those familiar with the military and its way of doing things can relate more with Jellico, while those not so familiar with the military tend towards Riker.

And there it is in a nutshell.

EDIT: The real problem, of course, was that the writers of modern Trek had no friggin clue what life in the military was like. Anyone who says Starfleet wasn't a military needs to watch some TOS, written by people who had a clue.

Wonderful, the reactionary comes up and tries to ruin another thread with his usual tripe.

Always a pleasure hearing your on-topic thoughts.

 

[Neopeius]

Regarding whether or not Starfleet, an organization which employs starships which in their most primitive configurations could destroy half a continent, qualifies as a military, recall that a military specifically refers to a nation's armed forces.

The Enterprise is heavily armed, in all of its incarnations. It's crew is heavily armed, in all of its incarnations.

You may find their discipline lax, you may find the decision to allow families on board nonsensical, but Starfleet, as depicted in all of the shows, is a military organization. Not "military". Not quasi-military. Military.

End of Line

 

[Opus]

Cutter John said:
Did the writers really intend for Jellico to be the villain of the piece though?

I think so. I think they were trying to make Riker a sympathetic character and justified in his whining to Jellico at the end of CoC pt. 2 after he was sent to his room. Troi states that Jellico is hiding soem kind of insecurities, blah blah blah, but Ronnie Cox never plays it that way and ends up making Riker look like the douche.

 

[A beaker full of death]

OphaClyde said:

Cutter John said:
Did the writers really intend for Jellico to be the villain of the piece though?

I think so. I think they were trying to make Riker a sympathetic character and justified in his whining to Jellico at the end of CoC pt. 2 after he was sent to his room. Troi states that Jellico is hiding soem kind of insecurities, blah blah blah, but Ronnie Cox never plays it that way and ends up making Riker look like the douche.

I agree.

 

[David cgc]

DavidFalkayn said:

Since Jellico had enough courage in his convictions to never accept the possibility that he might be acting like a fuckwit, he would have ruled out Riker for First Officer as soon as he found out Riker thought the First Officer's responsibilities extended beyond being a glorified secretary.

No, the job of the First Officer is to ensure that the captain's orders are properly carried out. Jellico told Riker to set the ship up on a four shift rotation. Riker failed to perform his duty and earned a reprimand and a stronger order to make it happen. Jellico should not have had to tell him twice to perform a task that really is not that hard to do. Riker failed as an executive officer on all levels in this episode.

DavidFalkayn said:
Jellico didn't relieve Riker for making the request, he relieved him for pressing the argument after the captain had stated that his decision was made. Riker was perfectly within his rights in making the initial request, however, once the captain had indicated that his decision was made, that ends the discussion. It then becomes the XO's job to carry out the captain's orders.

That's as may be, but in the very first episode, Picard made it clear that he choose Riker precisely because Riker wouldn't back down if he thought he was right and the Captain was wrong.

From the shooting script of "Encounter At Farpoint":
There's nothing disrespectful in Riker's tone of voice, but he does leave an impression that he's not to be walked on either.

PICARD
I noticed in your envelope that Captain DeSoto thinks very highly of you. One curious thing, however, you refused to let him beam down to Altair IV?

RIKER
In my opinion, sir, Altair IV was too dangerous to risk exposing the captain.

PICARD
I see. A captain's rank means nothing to you.

RIKER
Rather the reverse, sir. A captain's life means a great deal to me.

PICARD
Let me postulate something here, Mister Riker. Isn't it just possible that you don't get to be a starship captain without knowing when it's safe to beam down or not? Isn't it a little presumptuous for a first officer to second guess his captain's judgment?

RIKER
Permission to speak candidly, sir?

PICARD
Always.

RIKER
You've been a first officer yourself. You know that assuming that responsibility must, by definition, include the safety of the captain. I have no problem with following the rules you lay down. But under no circumstances will I compromise your safety. If you have a problem with that, sir, you can put me back on the Hood before she leaves.

PICARD
You don't intend to back off that position?

RIKER
No, sir, I can't.

Which brings me back to my original thesis. Jellico would've never chosen Riker to be his first officer because of what Jellico would interpret as a history of insubordination. Jellico philosophy says the captain and only the captain is qualified to choose to beam wherever he damned well pleased.

 

[Red Ranger]

NathanielM said:
I dunno Troi in uniform and earning her Lt Commander stripes was a BIG plus to the series. It gave her more to do and she actually had more responsibility on the bridge other than sit there on her fat can and sense things.

Sorry to nitpick, but Troi held the rank of lieutenant commander through most of the series. Perhaps you mean her earning her full commander rank -- three solid pips -- in the ep where she takes the bridge officer's test.

As long as I'm commenting in this thread -- which has the usual pro-militant comments from the usual suspects on this board >sigh< -- I have a slightly different take than the last time I posted my opinion.

Frankly, I think both Jellico and Riker acted like jerks. Both seemed to go out of their way to engage in an extended pissing contest. While I'm still more on Riker's side, he should have tried a little harder to get along with his new c.o. and do things his way. And Jellico's control freak demeanor actually got in the way of accomplishing his goals. That to me means he's not an effective leader.

BTW, Ronnie Cox does indeed play infuriating asshole authority figures quite well. One time he wasn't quite a jerk was in "Beverly Hills Cop" as Lt. Bogomil.

Another point I'd like to emphasize to the TNG-hating, military fawners here: Picard and Riker both say in different TNG eps that Starfleet isn't a military organization. So despite what you TNG bashers think, it is stated quite unequivocally. Yes, it's organized along military lines, but is not strictly a military organization, as the captain of the Federation's flagship said quite clearly.

Let's look at just one thing navies used to do that no longer apply in today's world: keelhauling. When was the last time an insubordinate sailor was dragged through the water?

My point is traditions change. Doubtless many rules in today's militaries don't apply by the time of the 24th century.

Red Ranger

 

[ancient]

A beaker full of death said:

OphaClyde said:

Cutter John said:
Did the writers really intend for Jellico to be the villain of the piece though?

I think so. I think they were trying to make Riker a sympathetic character and justified in his whining to Jellico at the end of CoC pt. 2 after he was sent to his room. Troi states that Jellico is hiding soem kind of insecurities, blah blah blah, but Ronnie Cox never plays it that way and ends up making Riker look like the douche.

I agree.

Yeah, I have to agree. If the ENT-D crew had spent less time whining and more time doing their jobs, they wouldn't have had such a problem. Riker went totally out of line.

Word of advice: Don't attempt to win a pissing match against a superior officer.

 

[Trekker4747]

Well, this thread has given me a lot to think about.

But, in the end, I've made a decision on my fan-fic I'm working on. The captain is going to be "the non-military military" Picard-like type who dosen't regard Starfleet as a strict military organization and is a little more laid-back (much like every, single, captain we've seen in the franchise.)

His first officer, however, is going to be hard-core militaristic Jelico type. Should make an interesting dynamic between the two.

 

[Admiral2]

Trekker4747 said:
Well, this thread has given me a lot to think about.

But, in the end, I've made a decision on my fan-fic I'm working on. The captain is going to be "the non-military military" Picard-like type who dosen't regard Starfleet as a strict military organization and is a little more laid-back (much like every, single, captain we've seen in the franchise.)

His first officer, however, is going to be hard-core militaristic Jelico type. Should make an interesting dynamic between the two.

You think you're being clever, but realistically a Jellico-type is just the kind of XO a Picard type captain needs. In every crew, somebody has to be the hard-ass, and that's normally the XO's job.

 

[AJBryant]

Mysterion said:
I still think that Edward jellico was the best thing that could have happened to that bunch on the Enterprise.

Hear, hear.


Tony

 

[David cgc]

Admiral2 said:
You think you're being clever, but realistically a Jellico-type is just the kind of XO a Picard type captain needs. In every crew, somebody has to be the hard-ass, and that's normally the XO's job.

Well, he could play it off by having the captain make a mistake, and the first officer doesn't allow anyone to question it. You know, like how Dr. Crusher covered for Picard at the end of First Contact when he ordered the crew to fight to the death.

Or the crew becomes frustrated because the captain is open to getting ideas, but the only way to make suggestions is through the first officer, who wants to keep people in their place, so the captain ends up insulated in a bubble despite his own efforts.

Come to think of it, the friendly commander letting the first officer crack the whip is the exact command dynamic on the new Battlestar Galactica. Maybe the season 2 opening arc was partially a remake of "Chain of Command." Of course, it ended with the crew beginning to mutiny and, when the original commander returned, his replacement confessing that he was a total screw-up.

 

[cooleddie74]

Jellico.

One of the least appealing senior officers in the entire history of TREK.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Trekker4747 said:
Well, this thread has given me a lot to think about.

But, in the end, I've made a decision on my fan-fic I'm working on. The captain is going to be "the non-military military" Picard-like type who dosen't regard Starfleet as a strict military organization and is a little more laid-back (much like every, single, captain we've seen in the franchise.)

You've GOT to watch more TOS.

 

[Salinga]

Another point I'd like to emphasize to the TNG-hating, military fawners here: Picard and Riker both say in different TNG eps that Starfleet isn't a military organization. So despite what you TNG bashers think, it is stated quite unequivocally. Yes, it's organized along military lines, but is not strictly a military organization, as the captain of the Federation's flagship said quite clearly.

When I am watching the TNG crew I rarely think about seeing a military organisation but more seeing an enterprise, where all play out their creativity as a team to accomplish a goal. That the ship is called "USS Enterprise" should be also a hint it's mostly about a group of people in an enterprise of some sort.

If the TNG crew were organized under a Captain Jellico from the first season I would never be a fan of the show and couldn't care less about it.

 

[ancient]

Salinga said:

Another point I'd like to emphasize to the TNG-hating, military fawners here: Picard and Riker both say in different TNG eps that Starfleet isn't a military organization. So despite what you TNG bashers think, it is stated quite unequivocally. Yes, it's organized along military lines, but is not strictly a military organization, as the captain of the Federation's flagship said quite clearly.

That's the most important thing though. Starfleet has a military structure. As such, whining about orders is not acceptable. As a matter of fact, it's not acceptable in any job, and you'll get your ass fired if you act the way Riker did to your boss.


[/QUOTE]
If the TNG crew were organized under a Captain Jellico from the first season I would never be a fan of the show and couldn't care less about it.

[/QUOTE]
That's irrelevant.

 

[Trekker4747]

A beaker full of death said:

Trekker4747 said:
Well, this thread has given me a lot to think about.

But, in the end, I've made a decision on my fan-fic I'm working on. The captain is going to be "the non-military military" Picard-like type who dosen't regard Starfleet as a strict military organization and is a little more laid-back (much like every, single, captain we've seen in the franchise.)

You've GOT to watch more TOS.

I'll admit that I've watched a whole hell of a lot of TNG the last couple weeks. Tell you what, I'll start in on re-watching TOS tonight. :thumbsup:

 

[A beaker full of death]

Salinga said:

When I am watching the TNG crew I rarely think about seeing a military organisation but more seeing an enterprise, where all play out their creativity as a team to accomplish a goal. That the ship is called "USS Enterprise" should be also a hint it's mostly about a group of people in an enterprise of some sort.

My brain hurts now. I think it's bleeding.