Bigger Douchebag: Captain Jellico or Commander Riker?

[Opus]

nx1701g said:
This episode severely hurt the professionalism I see toward the Enterprise crew. If they're the best of the best why can't they handle the change in orders. Jellico is one of the only true to form military commanders I have ever seen in a Trek Series. It is a shame that so many people despise him because he is what an actual CO is like. Very rarely will you meet a boss anywhere that is anything like Picard - face it the world (and militaries) are made up of Jellicos.

Pretty much the nail on the head.

As for the Federation being a military organization. Deep Space Nine expressly mentions "The Federation Military" and "The Starfleet Navy" in a couple of different episodes.

An don't forget Kirk's comment in TOS' "Tomorrow is Yesterday" to fighter pilot Capt. Christopher's question of what branch of service the Enterprise falls under. "We're a combined service." Of corse, that is just oneof a multitude of times Starfleet is synonymous with military in TOS.

 

[torius22]

what would have happened if the crew when away from star fleet , refused to obey ?could he have sent them all to thier rooms he cannot run the ship by himself . so u have to balance things the best way u can . if the crew trusts a man they will follow him into hell and back willingly , take away that trust and all u get is one man ranting and raving, confused why no one wants to follow him. truly a douchebag.
then the crew reports he died in a" accident " to star fleet .

 

[AJBryant]

torius22 said:
what would have happened if the crew when away from star fleet , refused to obey ?could he have sent them all to thier rooms he cannot run the ship by himself . so u have to balance things the best way u can . if the crew trusts a man they will follow him into hell and back willingly , take away that trust and all u get is one man ranting and raving, confused why no one wants to follow him. truly a douchebag.
then the crew reports he died in a" accident " to star fleet .

You are just sad, man.


Tony

 

[DavidFalkayn]

torius22 said:
what would have happened if the crew when away from star fleet , refused to obey ?could he have sent them all to thier rooms he cannot run the ship by himself . so u have to balance things the best way u can . if the crew trusts a man they will follow him into hell and back willingly , take away that trust and all u get is one man ranting and raving, confused why no one wants to follow him. truly a douchebag.
then the crew reports he died in a" accident " to star fleet .

If the flagship of the fleet is that far gone--if discipline is that poor, then Starfleet has major problems that go far beyond the Enterprise.

Riker behaved like a spoiled brat and Jellico was generous with him in not throwing him in the brig for his insubordination. Picard should have, on his return to command, relieved Riker of his position and put him up on charges. Riker should have at the least been courtmartialed and reduced in rank to LCDR or even LT and reassigned.

Troi, on her part, showed us that her finely honed Betazoid empathic senses weren't that finely honed in that she allowed her attitudes regarding Jellico to affect her judgment of his confidence in his own ability to negotiate with the Cardassians.

To be honest, if I were Nechayev, after receiving Jellico's report of what happened, I would immediately take steps to bust up that happy Enterprise bridge crew and I would have kept Jellico in command of the Big E. The Enterprise gang had been together for far too long and had gotten too comfortable with each other--to the point where their loyalty to each other exceeded that of their loyalty to Starfleet and their oaths--a dangerous situation.

 

[Salinga]

LOL - welcome to the "We hate TNG, and Jellico showed to the world what a load of crap TNG was." fanclub meeting. B-)

 

[DavidFalkayn]

^
Actually, I love TNG, otherwise I wouldn't post here

I agree with what an earlier poster stated that apparently the writers wanted to try to put Jellico in a bad light, but Ronnie Cox's excellent performance gave the character such depth that it had, for the writers at least, unintended consequences. Also, it is apparent to me that the writers didn't really understand how the military operates, nor do I think do many "Jellico haters". Jellico's behavior and expectations were perfectly reasonable and not at all out of line. The officers and crew of the Enterprise are supposed to be the 'best of the best', but in this instance they most certainly were not.

 

[David cgc]

votd said:
It makes you wonder how the character of Riker would have fared if Jellico had been captain of the Enterprise from the get go - would he have stuck around? or would he have regretted passing on the Drake.

That's easy. Riker never would've been on the Enterprise. Picard specifically choose Riker because he didn't have a problem with telling the Captain he was acting like a fuckwit, and even taking measures to protect the captain from himself if it came down to it. Can you imagine what Jellico would do if his first officer told him not to go on an away mission?

Since Jellico had enough courage in his convictions to never accept the possibility that he might be acting like a fuckwit, he would have ruled out Riker for First Officer as soon as he found out Riker thought the First Officer's responsibilities extended beyond being a glorified secretary.

 

[Anwar]

DavidFalkayn said:
^
Actually, I love TNG, otherwise I wouldn't post here

I agree with what an earlier poster stated that apparently the writers wanted to try to put Jellico in a bad light, but Ronnie Cox's excellent performance gave the character such depth that it had, for the writers at least, unintended consequences. Also, it is apparent to me that the writers didn't really understand how the military operates, nor do I think do many "Jellico haters". Jellico's behavior and expectations were perfectly reasonable and not at all out of line. The officers and crew of the Enterprise are supposed to be the 'best of the best', but in this instance they most certainly were not.

Funny, I always thought that characters like Nechayev and Jellico were created to show us that the TNG Universe was changing from the idealistic setting of S1 to the darker edgier universe it became in DS9, and people like Jellico and Nechayev and their attitudes were what would become the norm.

 

[DavidFalkayn]

That's easy. Riker never would've been on the Enterprise. Picard specifically choose Riker because he didn't have a problem with telling the Captain he was acting like a fuckwit, and even taking measures to protect the captain from himself if it came down to it. Can you imagine what Jellico would do if his first officer told him not to go on an away mission?

That situation never would have happened because Jellico knows that going on away missions was by and large not in his job description. That's the job of the first officer or whoever else the captain delegates to go on the mission. The captain proposes, the first officer disposes.

Since Jellico had enough courage in his convictions to never accept the possibility that he might be acting like a fuckwit, he would have ruled out Riker for First Officer as soon as he found out Riker thought the First Officer's responsibilities extended beyond being a glorified secretary.

No, the job of the First Officer is to ensure that the captain's orders are properly carried out. Jellico told Riker to set the ship up on a four shift rotation. Riker failed to perform his duty and earned a reprimand and a stronger order to make it happen. Jellico should not have had to tell him twice to perform a task that really is not that hard to do. Riker failed as an executive officer on all levels in this episode.

 

[EMHMark613]

Jellico

 

[Salinga]

I bet Jellico does fine as a captain on a ship where no one besides him is capable of thinking for himself, since for Jellico human beeings under his command are nothing more than tools - a tool does not think for itself, it does function or it is broken and must be removed from the toolbox.

Of course you can command like this but then don't expect anyone to do one bit more than you commanded them to do.

BTW Jellico must be a real idiot to come on a ship where a crew got together a system over years where everything works smoothly and he thinks, everyone is an idiot, did it wrong all these years and he, seconds after he arrived on the ship, is capable of finding a better system.

System of Jellico: One thinks, others act as tools of the one.
System of Picard: All think, Picard deligates the knowledge of the individuals in the team to accomplish a goal under the guidelines he set.

 

[DavidFalkayn]

^
Jellico is like most of the CO's I've served under. Is he tough? Yes--because he knows what you're capable of doing and expects you to get the job done--not to tell him that 'we don't do it this way' or 'this is the way we've always done it'. That was then--this is now. He's the CO, it's not his job to conform to the crew--its their job to conform to his expectations and standards. If the crew can't adapt to their new CO's reasonable expectations--and Jellico did not ask that crew to do more than it was capable of--then they're not that good. Far from viewing the Enterprise crew as tools, he saw them as Starfleet officers and enlisted and expected them to perform as such, making them work up to his standards.

Jellico's perfectly capable of delegating authority--he did so to Riker and Riker failed to carry out his duties. He did so to Data and Data did carry out his duties. He had to push Geordi, but Geordi got the job done. Again, Riker's duty was to carry out his CO's wishes, it's not Jellico's job to pander to the crew.

I would argue that where we see the greatest impact of Jellico on the Enterprise crew was with Deanna Troi--he turned her into an officer. She finally discovered that she is subject to the same discipline as the rest of the crew, and while she hated it at first, as we see in the rest of the series when she begins wearing her uniform on a regular basis and goes for her third solid pip, she begins to take pride in that uniform and in being an officer first and a counselor second.

Again, I think the fault line on the Riker-Jellico divide rests on familiarity with the military, its culture, and its institutions. I would contend that those familiar with the military and its way of doing things can relate more with Jellico, while those not so familiar with the military tend towards Riker.

 

[Harry Palmer]

Salinga said:
I bet Jellico does fine as a captain on a ship where no one besides him is capable of thinking for himself, since for Jellico human beeings under his command are nothing more than tools - a tool does not think for itself, it does function or it is broken and must be removed from the toolbox.

Of course you can command like this but then don't expect anyone to do one bit more than you commanded them to do.

BTW Jellico must be a real idiot to come on a ship where a crew got together a system over years where everything works smoothly and he thinks, everyone is an idiot, did it wrong all these years and he, seconds after he arrived on the ship, is capable of finding a better system.

System of Jellico: One thinks, others act as tools of the one.
System of Picard: All think, Picard deligates the knowledge of the individuals in the team to accomplish a goal under the guidelines he set.

Jellico had to take a ship that was complacent and prepare it for possible front line combat. He had to kick the crew of the D in their rears. And their subsequent behavior showed why.

 

[Salinga]

Jellico had to take a ship that was complacent and prepare it for possible front line combat. He had to kick the crew of the D in their rears. And their subsequent behavior showed why.

Yea, if you want a ship running smoothly in a short time, the first thing you do is changing the routine.

The subsequent behaviour resulted from that because he prevented the ship from running smoothly.

The main reason because Jellico wanted to have things changed was because he trusts no one else than himself. Not because he needed things to run better but to run them his way, because he had no trust at all in the crew and their routine. He did not care about his mission, he did only care about himself by that.

 

[Salinga]

Jellico is like most of the CO's I've served under.

I understood when I watched the episode back then that it wanted to compare 20th century commanding officers with the 24th century commander like Picard. I read in an interview with the writer Moore, that the writing staff was a bit pissed about the high standards of the TNG setting and they wanted more conflict in the show (of course: It's easier to write, since you have more real-life examples for stories). I bet Jellico was a try of the writers to lower the bar.

And I understand now that you can relate more to Jellico, since his type is what you know. If that qualifies him as better than Picard's "new" type ...

 

[DavidFalkayn]

Actually, I would rate the modern US Armed Forces--enlisted and officer corps, as well as our Canadian and European allies, not to mention our Japanese and Aussie friends as superior to those portrayed on TNG. If anything, Jellico served to raise the bar. To be brutally honest, I'd rather serve under a Jellico than a Picard any day--especially if I'm going into combat. I know that while Jellico is a hardass, he's a hardass who knows his job and will get the best out of his officers and men and who will like as not get me back home in one piece.

Again, and this is the point that you're not really grasping, and which tells me that you're not really familiar with how the military functions, it's not the captain who has to meet the crew's expectations! It's the job of the crew to meet the expectations of the captain. Jellico's expections were not at all out of line--I've had to do far more when I experienced changes of command. If Riker's and the crew's self esteem was damaged, boo-freaking-hoo, if they're not professional enough to get the job done, then they shouldn't be on that ship.

(edited to add a bit more commentary and include our Japanese and Australian allies)

 

[Ayezur]

Adding my two cents to David's argument - in any situation where you're miles away from whatever help you can find, unless your leader is obviously insane or incompetent, you obey. A crises situation, or the prelude to a galactic war, is not the time to have a cozy little chat and democratic vote.

 

[Vasquez Rocks]

What do you guys think of Riker when he argues with Jellico about giving Picard the protection of some treaty (can't remember the exact name of it). This was the thing that got him relieved of duty.

I agree that the other stuff he did was childish, but with this point I agree with him about protecting Picard. It might have saved him from being tortured. Jellico's answer was that it would show weakness on their part.

 

[DavidFalkayn]

Jellico's reason for rejecting Riker's request wasn't that it would show weakness, but rather that by doing so, it would be an admission to Starfleet involvement and approval of Picard's mission--a covert raid into Cardassian territory--putting Jellico at a severe disadvantage in the negotiations. Jellico didn't relieve Riker for making the request, he relieved him for pressing the argument after the captain had stated that his decision was made. Riker was perfectly within his rights in making the initial request, however, once the captain had indicated that his decision was made, that ends the discussion. It then becomes the XO's job to carry out the captain's orders. The sad truth of the matter was that, as far as Starfleet was officially concerned, Picard acted on his own--he was a rogue--Nechayev had already written him off. Welcome to the world of covert operations.

 

[nx1701g]

I wonder how people here would have reacted if they would have went with the original plans for the ending of Tapestry with Picard learning Jellico was Captain of Enterprise in the Q Universe.