Bigger Douchebag: Captain Jellico or Commander Riker?

[A beaker full of death]

Trekker4747 said:

The thing is Starfleet isn't a military organization and never was supposed to be. The ranks and command structure may emulate it but is more ceremonial/designed to give a chain of command than it is supposed to be anything to do with an extension of the military.

*ahem* BULLSHIT *ahem*

A ship wouldn't last five minutes with that attitude, nor would any other chain of command. It's not ceremonial, it's THE COMMAND STRUCTURE. Orders are not optional and are not open to debate.
See, for instance, the scene in TMP where Kirk is about to ream Decker for countermanding his phaser order. If Decker hadn't had a damn good reason he'd have found his ass in the brig for the rest of the trip.

 

[Sec31Mike]

I think Jellico was well within rights and reason with the demands he was making on the crew. It was preparation for war, not time for synthale at 10-forward.

And yes, Starfleet IS a military organization. Respect, professionalism, and hard work are expexcted. You would not put heavily armed warships in the hands of a civillian organization.

I think Riker did indeed step over some lines he shouldn't have.

I don't think either of them was a douchebag. I think Riker did whine too much in that episode.

 

[toughlittleship]

Definitely Riker. I always thought the Enterprise crew came off as spoiled brats in those episodes.

 

[Trekker4747]

And yes, Starfleet IS a military organization. Respect, professionalism, and hard work are expexcted. You would not put heavily armed warships in the hands of a civillian organization.

It's probably better to call it a "military" ogranization.

Gene orginaly intended for Kirk and the Enterprise to be explorers not unlike Cousteau and not part of a military organization.

There's an obvious command structure and only the most qualified and disciplined get to be in Starfleet and there's also an obvious, rigorous, training program involved.

But Starfleet isn't a military. First of all it's primary use and goal isn't defense secondly not many militaries put bars, labs, large recreation facilities on their ships or give their crews apartment-sized rooms on-ship.

So, IMHO, Starfleet is only military in the loosest sense of the word.

 

[Admiral2]

Riker: Much Bigger Douchebag!!! And a whiney douchebag at that.

Jellico was, and shall ever be, THE MAN!

 

[CoveTom]

Trekker4747 said:
Gene orginaly intended for Kirk and the Enterprise to be explorers not unlike Cousteau and not part of a military organization.

I suspect that while this is the common line that it is more of the revisionist history of Star Trek that Gene Roddenberry was so fond of later in his life. It was Roddenberry, no one else, who designed a ship heavily armed ship for our heroes. As Harve Bennett once said, it was Gene who put phasers on the Enterprise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Cousteau's ships ever having weapons. Nor do I recall them ever being charged with the defense of a nation.

It is true that Starfleet has other purposes besides waging war. That does not disqualify it from being a military. Our current military performs many duties besides waging war, albeit somewhat more limited in scope than the duties of Starfleet.

Again, one of Starfleet's prime purposes is the defense of the Federation. They are its sole defense arm, in fact, and its sole armed forces. They are heavily armed and tactically trained. And the moment there is any hint of hostilities, their scientific duties are quickly dropped. In fact, I believe it was Kirk himself in the Roddenberry-helmed original series who said "I'm a soldier, not a diplomat."

How that cannot be classified as a military is beyond me.

 

[Spider]

I guess I'm going to have to go back and watch this episode to see what all the fuss is about. It's been many years since I've seen it, as it was never one of my favorites and I skipped over it the last time I ran through TNG.

I just hate yall calling Riker a douchebag!

But before I go defending him any further in this particular episode, I'm gonna watch it within the next week or so.

 

[Harry Palmer]

Admiral2 said:
Riker: Much Bigger Douchebag!!! And a whiney douchebag at that.

Jellico was, and shall ever be, THE MAN!

Affirmative! It's a shame they didn't bring Jellico back for DS9.

 

[McCoy]

Does anyone know the writers' intentions for this episode?

Was this episode intended to have these shades of gray (no pun intended)? Was the audience supposed to see the crew as being kicked in their collective complacent ass by a good officer who just had a different style?

Or was Jellico written as just another blockhead authority figure (an admittedly stock character in Trek) who just didn't "get" the Enterprise crew, but Ronny Cox was so good that he gave the character extra dimensions and spawned this endless debate?

My vote is for the latter.

 

[Harry Palmer]

McCoy said:
Does anyone know the writers' intentions for this episode?

Was this episode intended to have these shades of gray (no pun intended)? Was the audience supposed to see the crew as being kicked in their collective complacent ass by a good officer who just had a different style?

Or was Jellico written as just another blockhead authority figure (an admittedly stock character in Trek) who just didn't "get" the Enterprise crew, but Ronny Cox was so good that he gave the character extra dimensions and spawned this endless debate?

My vote is for the latter.

I think the writers in trying to make Jellico a 'bad guy' accidentally created a character with all the traits of a good real life CO. Ronny Cox just took the character and owned it and in the process pwned the regular cast. Once again it's a damn shame he didn't get resurrected for DS9. And I'm not even going to discuss those silly novels.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Riker is the douchiest of them all.

 

[Maestro]

Riker's the bigger douche. His job as the XO is to implement the CO's orders and facilitate the crew's understanding and acceptance of them. In other words, make the troops do as they're told.

Peter David, OTOH, wrote Jellico to be a major douche the few times he shows up in the novels. Clearly, Peter David thought that Riker was a non-douche.

 

[Ayezur]

In any question asking "Who is the bigger douche?" Riker is the correct answer. Even he isn't one of the choices.

 

[Timo]

On the issue of what the writers intended, the script at TrekCore (seems to be the final version, too) initially emphasizes Jellico's good looks, air of authority and no-nonsense conduct in positive terms.

If Jellico were intended to be just a villain, the script might dwell on the creepy way he rushes to first-name basis with everybody (a bigger turn-off to us Germanic folks than those of American persuasion), the Queegy mannerisms he might have, or his failure to see his shortcomings and repent. But those things are not in the script. The only bit that clearly points to the writers wanting us to hate Jellico is in his final scene: the one where he warmly thanks the crew after the command handover ceremony, but is met with icy stares.

Still, the scripting of that final scene IMHO is sufficient to convey the writer intent on the character. Some of the heroes may have gained an understanding of him, sort of (LaForge in the shuttle), but in the end, he is still to be hated and despised.

If Cox somewhat transcended that original intent, all the better... The character could have gone in multiple directions from there. Peter David's direction is a "valid" one, but not the one I'd have wanted to see on screen if the character ever returned. Yet had Cox not worked his magic, the Peter David route might have been the only one available for Jellico.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[nx1701g]

I've said it before, I'll say it again, and in two months I'll say it again when this pops up again:

This episode severely hurt the professionalism I see toward the Enterprise crew. If they're the best of the best why can't they handle the change in orders. Jellico is one of the only true to form military commanders I have ever seen in a Trek Series. It is a shame that so many people despise him because he is what an actual CO is like. Very rarely will you meet a boss anywhere that is anything like Picard - face it the world (and militaries) are made up of Jellicos.

As for the Federation being a military organization. Deep Space Nine expressly mentions "The Federation Military" and "The Starfleet Navy" in a couple of different episodes.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Picard says that Starfleet isn't a military in a season 2 TNG episode.

 

[Anwar]

He only says that to come off as non-threatening and more friendly to people. The "Oh, we're not REALLY a military" line has been used for years by the old explorers when meeting/dealing with people.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

McCoy said:
Does anyone know the writers' intentions for this episode?

Was this episode intended to have these shades of gray (no pun intended)? Was the audience supposed to see the crew as being kicked in their collective complacent ass by a good officer who just had a different style?

Oh, I'm sure it was. They wanted to show Riker bring a little too comfortable and loyal towards Picard - a failing that was never fully explored, IMO, in either the rest of the series, or the movies. Nor was the initial conflict between Riker and Picard, which lasted all of one scene in the pilot episode!

However, it reveals how little television writers know about (or care to know about) the military. Though they did make a right choice in casting Ronnie Cox. If you need to have a character who isn't really a villain, but who can subtly make people hate him, he's the guy!

As for Starfleet being military, I have to agree. There are non-canon books that feature a Federation Navy and Marines, true military organizations that would ideally allow Starfleet to be strictly exploratory, but the writers blew that explanation on DS9 by having Starfleet responsible for the entire Dominion War, even so far as having uniformed Starfleet officers in ground battles!

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Riker's Le Douche

Jellico's role might have been more interesting, and more controversial had it been a non-white male, a female or an alien or Quato from Total Recall.

"Riker...start the reactor..."

 

[Opus]

McCoy said:
Does anyone know the writers' intentions for this episode?

Was this episode intended to have these shades of gray (no pun intended)? Was the audience supposed to see the crew as being kicked in their collective complacent ass by a good officer who just had a different style?

Or was Jellico written as just another blockhead authority figure (an admittedly stock character in Trek) who just didn't "get" the Enterprise crew, but Ronny Cox was so good that he gave the character extra dimensions and spawned this endless debate?

My vote is for the latter.

Actually, I think the writers were trying to make Jellico out as a Douche, and Riker the sympathetic hero. I make this observation by the lame pontificating of Riker at the end of CoC part II. I think the writers were trying to make a point, but falls completely flat because I believe this episode was written by someone who truly never understood the concept of "The Chain of Command" as it exists in the military. And Ronny Cox' performance as a rough-and-ready, gung-ho commander overshadowed Frakes' whiny Riker and added to this episode really just backfiring on the writers.