Bigger Douchebag: Captain Jellico or Commander Riker?

[steveman]

The one good thing that Jellico did was shake the crew up; after around six or so years, I think they needed it. To throw in a BSG reference, as Adama says in "Pegasus," people had been getting lazy and had started to let things slide. While I don't think the Enterprise had gotten quite this bad - Picard wouldn't stand for it, for one - I think they did need someone like Jellico to come on board and wake everyone up.

That said, shouldn't we be addressing the real question here? It's not a question of who was the bigger douchebag between Jellico and Riker -- It's who's a bigger douchebag between Captain Jellico and Senator Kinsey.

Give Ronny Cox some credit. If there's one type of character that he's been able to play well throughout his career, it's an asshole.

 

[Spider]

steveman said:
Give Ronny Cox some credit. If there's one type of character that he's been able to play well throughout his career, it's an asshole.

Oh my. I hated him in SG-1.

 

[Harry Palmer]

nx1701g said:
I wonder how people here would have reacted if they would have went with the original plans for the ending of Tapestry with Picard learning Jellico was Captain of Enterprise in the Q Universe.

It would've been great if Jellico had become Captain permantly.

 

[Trekker4747]

I dunno, I still think Jelico could've given the Enterprise crew a bit of slack. He expected the world overnight and that's just not reasonable. The crew wasn't any better but, as indicated above, I've never fully believed in Starfleet being a striclty miliatry organization where this kind of behavior is unacceptable.

Riker, Geordi, and Troi had the best interests in the crew in mind for their peaceful ship of exploration. If the incident with the Cardassians had ended peacefully (but with the loss of Picard) where would Jelico be then? He'd be in charge of a ship of peace and exploration with a crew that was tense, wound up, and hated him.

He could've shown a little bit of humanity but he was full of himself and with arrogance, "Here's your ship-back, Picard. Hopefully a little better."



Don't let the pattern buffer hit you in the ass on the way out.

 

[DavidFalkayn]

Give Ronny Cox some credit. If there's one type of character that he's been able to play well throughout his career, it's an asshole.

This is very true. He was very good as Dr. John Gideon on [St. Elsewhere[/i] was terrific--Gideon vs. Mark Craig was a classic and when Westphal mooned him--pure comic glory.

Like I said earlier and what previous posters have said, it was Ronny Cox who really made Jellico a deep three dimensional character.

 

[nx1701g]

Trekker4747 said:
I dunno, I still think Jelico could've given the Enterprise crew a bit of slack. He expected the world overnight and that's just not reasonable. The crew wasn't any better but, as indicated above, I've never fully believed in Starfleet being a striclty miliatry organization where this kind of behavior is unacceptable.

I hate repeating the old mantra but: Starfleet is a military organization and they admit it in several episodes of TOS and DS9. As for the overnight thing: again welcome to the military. My brother serves on a base that had a pretty relaxed CO recently then the CO was transferred to another base. Within the period of a day all kinds of things changed aboard the base and they were given no warning. Things that were once perfectly acceptable were instantly against the rules. He even, as Jellico did, changed the duty shifts.

Riker, Geordi, and Troi had the best interests in the crew in mind for their peaceful ship of exploration. If the incident with the Cardassians had ended peacefully (but with the loss of Picard) where would Jelico be then? He'd be in charge of a ship of peace and exploration with a crew that was tense, wound up, and hated him.

Again had Picard been lost more than likely the Federation would have been at war. Enterprise as the Federation Flagship would help lead that war. Jellico was a combat captain and that's what the Enterprise would have been (and was from the beginning if you think about it) a battleship. Worf even calls the Enterprise a warship in Conundrum.

He could've shown a little bit of humanity but he was full of himself and with arrogance, "Here's your ship-back, Picard. Hopefully a little better."

Again welcome to the military. If you think about it though some of his changes did stick. Picard mentions Delta Shift (4 shift) in season 7 during lower decks and Troi wears a uniform.

 

[Maestro]

Spider said:

steveman said:
Give Ronny Cox some credit. If there's one type of character that he's been able to play well throughout his career, it's an asshole.

Oh my. I hated him in SG-1.

That means he did a damn fine job in the role. You were supposed to hate him.

 

[A beaker full of death]

DavidFalkayn said:
Again, I think the fault line on the Riker-Jellico divide rests on familiarity with the military, its culture, and its institutions. I would contend that those familiar with the military and its way of doing things can relate more with Jellico, while those not so familiar with the military tend towards Riker.

And there it is in a nutshell.

EDIT: The real problem, of course, was that the writers of modern Trek had no friggin clue what life in the military was like. Anyone who says Starfleet wasn't a military needs to watch some TOS, written by people who had a clue.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Trekker4747 said:
I dunno, I still think Jelico could've given the Enterprise crew a bit of slack. He expected the world overnight and that's just not reasonable. The crew wasn't any better but, as indicated above, I've never fully believed in Starfleet being a striclty miliatry organization where this kind of behavior is unacceptable.

What do you wanna do, Deanna?
I dunno. Let's ask them really nicely.
Hmm. Worf?
Kill them. Kill them all. Then go find their home planet and blow it up.
ok. Geordi?
I wanna get laid! I wanna get laid so bad!!
ok. Time to vote. All who think we should ask them, show of hands.
Wait, captain, no one seconded the motion to vote.
Oh, my bad. Sorry. I hope that didn't upset you.

 

[Timo]

Of corse, that is just one of a multitude of times Starfleet is synonymous with military in TOS.

Or in the 24th century. But perhaps military isn't synonymous with military in the 24th century?

I mean, the word "military" as such is only used very seldom in Trek. When Picard claims Starfleet is not it, he could be using the 24th century definition of the word - as synonymous to "militant". Starfleet is not necessarily militant even though it is a fairly traditional armed service for defense and offense. Or at least Starfleet need not think of itself as militant, just like the Soviet military during the Cold War would have thunk of itself as less militant than the US one, and vice versa.

That situation never would have happened because Jellico knows that going on away missions was by and large not in his job description.

Difficult to say, really. Jellico could go down there out of a desire to micromanage. Or he could be an adventurous hellraiser like Picard was in his youth, or Kirk in his old age. His behavior in "Chain of Command" could hint at either or both traits.

Picard mentions Delta Shift (4 shift) in season 7 during lower decks and Troi wears a uniform.

So is Picard a wuss for not changing back?

The ship under Picard's command was "customized" to fit the skipper just as much as under Jellico. Remember Leah Brahms bitching about the endless changes, authorized or unauthorized, that LaForge had made to the ship? Or how every visiting officer feels obligated to point out how Picard runs a laid-back bridge? It could very well be standard Starfleet practice to reconfigure the ships for each tour of duty, considering their inherent flexibility.

Of course, our heroes' slowness in adapting to Jellico's antics would be all the more damning then. But in the end, the only one who was dragging his heels was Riker. LaForge did adapt, at Data's promting. Troi fit right in, after her unprofessional blurting out of "No, he isn't sure about himself" on the bridge. (And Worf was luckily still under heavy sedation after his underground misadventures. I think.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[NathanielM]

I dunno Troi in uniform and earning her Lt Commander stripes was a BIG plus to the series. It gave her more to do and she actually had more responsibility on the bridge other than sit there on her fat can and sense things.

She actually looked good in that uniform... I hated that purple thing she wore and how she had her hair... This change made her more conforming to life on a starship...

Just my 2 cents..

Nathaniel

 

[nx1701g]

Timo said:
So is Picard a wuss for not changing back?

I didn't actually say that he was - I just meant that Jellico said maybe he changed a couple of things for the better and Picard agreed about the shifts and Troi in uniform.

 

[Anwar]

A beaker full of death said:

DavidFalkayn said:
Again, I think the fault line on the Riker-Jellico divide rests on familiarity with the military, its culture, and its institutions. I would contend that those familiar with the military and its way of doing things can relate more with Jellico, while those not so familiar with the military tend towards Riker.

And there it is in a nutshell.

EDIT: The real problem, of course, was that the writers of modern Trek had no friggin clue what life in the military was like. Anyone who says Starfleet wasn't a military needs to watch some TOS, written by people who had a clue.

Wonderful, the reactionary comes up and tries to ruin another thread with his usual tripe.

 

[nx1701g]

^ Let's keep it fair, even though we may agree about Beaker we don't want to start a war between one another.

 

[Cutter John]

Did the writers really intend for Jellico to be the villain of the piece though? He certain managed to win the day through a brilliant bit of strategy. He really did come off as the right man for the job despite being a hard-ass.

Would have been so easy for the writers to have Jellico screw up and let Riker step in and save the day.

 

[Timo]

The events as such seem to show that Jellico did the right thing, every step down the path from "Cardassians are emitting theta rays" to "You might want to return one Jean-Luc Picard to us now". But the story still culminates in every character hating him. Is that "villain" or not?

Thankfully, not quite the stereotypical villain of TOS fare; not a stilted bureaucrat who comes to see wisdom in the end, but rather a hardass who out-heroes the heroes and still thinks he's the better man at the end. The audience can for this rare once choose by themselves what to think of the guest star. Which I think is why this issue remains so popular...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Spider]

Anwar said:
Wonderful, the reactionary comes up and tries to ruin another thread with his usual tripe.

OK folks, this is the last friendly I'm giving out in this thread. Don't make this a personal war between anyone, or I'll have to start handing our real warnings.

 

[Salinga]

Actually, I would rate the modern US Armed Forces--enlisted and officer corps, as well as our Canadian and European allies, not to mention our Japanese and Aussie friends as superior to those portrayed on TNG.

LOOOL - yea! They handled Iraq VERY well - especially those "Get-The-Job-Done"-Rummies and -Bushies at the head of command there. Guantanamo and Abu-Graib really show the ethical excellence of this organisation.

If something is a total failure nowadays, it's the US military. Their only goal is to keep the money flow to the war industry.

If an example shows, that you need people that say "No!" to their "captains" instead of carrying out orders without thinking for themselfs, it's the todays US military.

But thanks for the great laugh I had.

 

[DavidFalkayn]

^

As I like to think of myself as being an affable individual, I have one rule in forums such as this--I keep my politics out. Any further discussion on these lines is going to slide into TNZ territory or could easily fall into ad hominem attacks, neither of which I feel comfortable involving myself in. To paraphrase Lynyrd Skynyrd: If you want to talk fishing--or Trek--that's ok by me; otherwise, I won't discuss modern politics here.

 

[Spider]

DavidFalkayn said:
^

As I like to think of myself as being an affable individual, I have one rule in forums such as this--I keep my politics out. Any further discussion on these lines is going to slide into TNZ territory or could easily fall into ad hominem attacks, neither of which I feel comfortable involving myself in. To paraphrase Lynyrd Skynyrd: If you want to talk fishing--or Trek--that's ok by me; otherwise, I won't discuss modern politics here.

I was about to say the same thing. It's easier to just quote DavidFalkayn

Remember folks, this is TNG not TNZ.