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Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS*****

Re: "Before Dishonor" — A Darn Good Read!

We saw Janeway with a Pocketwatch in Year of Hell.
 
Re: "Before Dishonor" — A Darn Good Read!

Christopher said:
I get the sense that most of the Q prefer not to interfere in the free will of mortals. And most of them probably don't consider the affairs of fleeting, ephemeral civilizations all that worthy of their attention to begin with. Even the Borg are mayflies to them. Why bother wiping them out when, on the cosmic scale of things, they'll probably be gone in a few eyeblinks anyway?

Okay, I'll buy that. Indifference by way of evolutionary superiority.
 
Re: "Before Dishonor" — A Darn Good Read!

Sounds very Q to me. I will say that was a great interaction though, one of those whoa moments I love in a good book.
 
Re: "Before Dishonor" — A Darn Good Read!

I just thought of something while trying to forget what I was doing at work here. At the end of New Frontiers: MIA Q and q were fishing and Q snagged a jellyfish and tossed it on the dock, wipping out the Bogar (help here from my NF friends on the name) because they thouht too highly of themselves. From that I figured it was our Q but if Lady Q was ticked enough perhaps she would have done something. Just a random thought though. :vulcan:

Oh, and those thingies the Enterprise crew wore on their wrists in TMP weren't watches but looked related.
 
Re: "Before Dishonor" — A Darn Good Read!

^ Nope, the Bolgar event was the deLancie Q -- he made reference to it in Q & A, and shame on you for forgetting. *wags finger*
 
Re: "Before Dishonor" — A Darn Good Read!

Just finished it this evening, and I'm trying to put my thoughts into words.

It was another stellar Borg story. The evolution of the Borg, their ruthlessness, the action, almost everything. I know the assimilation of the Einstein wasn't needed, and it gave the book more of a "WTH?" moment, but I wish there were drones in action. BD had them just standing around and occasionally conversing. However, I do understand why they weren't over there assimilating when the cube can just absorb you and divert you to the assimilation chambers or whatever it did. Also, the Borg seemed to gain a Superman complex. What's better than a cube? A self-aware one. Instead of strip-mining a moon, just eat it. Need a larger amount of mass and energy, fly into the sun. It needed to be more extravagant, so let's have it do crazy things. Couldn't the other Borg stranded in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants been contacted by the Queen and made some flotilla of survivalist Borg instead of this supersmart cube?

Characterwise, I can't say I enjoyed his portrayal of any of the new characters or the old ones. The old characters were too long-winded in places. Picard wouldn't have stood up and told everyone that the Borg were trying to imitate the shape. I had a hard time "listening" to Geordi ramble about Reannon, nor could I really understand his pining for Seven to want to come back from the Planet Killer. It's like he was trying to find a new Data.
The new crew were so very different from their previous introduction. The mutiny was outrageous, and I can hardly picture it happening on the Enterprise or anywhere else. The new crew's blindness towards what happened to the first fleets to face the new cube is almost inexcusable to even write. Data's handpicked successor and a DW-vet security chief can't see that weapons are useless and ships are just absorbed? Seriously, the mutiny came off like PAD ran out of ideas and wanted to create an extra layer of tension leading up to the final chapters.
 
Re: "Before Dishonor" — A Darn Good Read!

I knew it was our Q just by him fishing with his son (I did say I figured it was our Q). I just meant if he could do that to the Bolgar (thanks for the name) than Lady Q could squash the Borg if she was ticked enough. I was paying attention, sort of.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I have my review up here: http://julioangelortiz.net/?p=720

Overall, a good, fun read. I liked the conflict between the "new crew" and "old crew." The book felt like a "season finale," and I wonder how Janeway's fate will play out over the long run.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I enjoyed the book. I too think that PAD did not "get" the new characters. I liked them in Q&A. I did not like them at all in this book.

Great story overall though.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Well I have checked all the Borders stores in Morgantown today. Nothing - so I'm going to Pittsburgh tomorrow to look for it.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Just finished reading "Before Dishonor". I am not sure how I feel about the book. It was fun to read. I really enjoyed the scene between lady Q and the Bord Queen. There were some awesome philosophical moments. But some parts just felt wrong. For example, I thought the part where the Borg cube absorbs Pluto and flies into the Sun to spawn baby Borg ships was really over the top and absurd. I also did not like the mutiny. The mutineers were totally unprofessional and frankly stupid. They take over the ship because they want to go on a suicide mission against the Borg?!? And then when the Borg starships attack, Kadohata returns command to Picard because she has no clue how to command and wants to pretend like nothing happened. Don't commit mutiny if you can't accept the consequences! I also hated T'lana. I am glad Picard tossed her out. All she did was constantly criticize Picard and rebel against every decision he would make.

I got a laugh at the end when Spock suggests that Starfleet implement a new General Order to automatically put Picard in charge of everything if the Borg return. It was cute way of pointing out how often our heroes save the day by disobeying orders. I am surprised Starfleet didn't have that rule when Kirk was captain.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Romulan_spy said:
It was cute way of pointing out how often our heroes save the day by disobeying orders. I am surprised Starfleet didn't have that rule when Kirk was captain.

That's because, contrary to myth, Kirk very rarely disobeyed orders in TOS. The reputation of Kirk as a renegade comes mainly from the movies. In TOS, the one instance where he blatantly violated a direct order was in "Amok Time."
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

^ And even then he received post-facto permission from Starfleet Command.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Romulan_spy said:
Just finished reading "Before Dishonor". I am not sure how I feel about the book. It was fun to read. I really enjoyed the scene between lady Q and the Bord Queen. There were some awesome philosophical moments. But some parts just felt wrong. For example, I thought the part where the Borg cube absorbs Pluto and flies into the Sun to spawn baby Borg ships was really over the top and absurd. I also did not like the mutiny. The mutineers were totally unprofessional and frankly stupid. They take over the ship because they want to go on a suicide mission against the Borg?!? And then when the Borg starships attack, Kadohata returns command to Picard because she has no clue how to command and wants to pretend like nothing happened. Don't commit mutiny if you can't accept the consequences! I also hated T'lana. I am glad Picard tossed her out. All she did was constantly criticize Picard and rebel against every decision he would make.

I got a laugh at the end when Spock suggests that Starfleet implement a new General Order to automatically put Picard in charge of everything if the Borg return. It was cute way of pointing out how often our heroes save the day by disobeying orders. I am surprised Starfleet didn't have that rule when Kirk was captain.
IMO given his experience with the Borg putting Picard in charge of any more conlficts with them does kinda make sense.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

In general, I thought the book was fun, and a lot better than many of his recent NF stories have been, but it still had many major problems. First off,Starfleet is incredibly incompetent, Jellico seems to be in charge (WHY???), and Worf acted as if nothing had changed for him since Star Trek: Generations.

One thing Peter David does really well is action, and I was excited throughout the entire book.

My biggest problem was with the characterizations of the new characters. As stated before, why would Leybenzon or Kadohata mutiny? Kadohata has been with Picard since "Encounter at Farpoint," so why would she think her judgment is better than his? And Leybenzon! "I hate authority figures, so I think admirals are always right!" That makes no sense at all. The fact that they were attracted to each other just came out of left field, given that Kadohata seemed to be in a happy marriage, Leybenzon disliked officers, and I don't recall the characters interacting at all in Q & A. Now she was calling him "Zel." Wha? And since when does her husband live on Enterprise?

T'Lana seemed to be a drunken Soleta. Completely irrational, and stubborn beyond any reason. When she mentally commented on the "obviousness" of the Leybenzon/Kadohata lust, I thought, "Yes, why don't they admit their attraction... like you and Worf! Hypocrite!"

I notice KRAD has not mentioned how he feels about PAD changing the characters he created. I know I would be pissed. I wonder how Christopher will reconcile the two very divergent takes on Kadohata and Leybenzon in Greater than the Sum.

Oh, I forgot to mention, that despite his disdain for VGR, he actually wrote a very good Janeway and Seven. I was very surprised. Her death was very shocking to me.

6/10.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

I have to say, I was disappointed with PAD this time. And I suppose majority of the shortcomings have already been noticed.

The one thing I so disliked is that this book sounded NF-lite to me. T'Lana was Soleta with more experience and Leybenzon... well even if this was his first introduction, it would not have worked. He is not a fully formed person in this book.

And the introduction of NF clue at the end... what was the point?

I gotta say. Recently PAD feels like a fandom's naked emperor... I've enjoyed little of his work, Trek or otherwise.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

This is my review of "Before Dishonor":

S P O I L E R

*

*

I love this book but I would love it even more if there weren`t one aspect I will deal with at the end of my review. Nevertheless, it is a book that has a lot to offer. I enjoyed the references to PAD`s classic Borg novel “Vendetta” and smiled when I read the comments about female Borg which is, of course, referring to the disclaimer PAD was forced to put into “Vendetta” at that time. I laughed when I read about the ongoing debate if Pluto is a planet or not.

I was very curious how PAD would build on “Vendetta”. I think he succeeded to make the Borg scary and unpredictable again. He certainly kept me surprised and wondering what will happen next. I read some comments saying that PAD went over the top again but when I look at TOS, I think some of what was shown there was certainly more fantastic and unbelievable. All the changes made perfect sense to me and that makes the changes shown in this book so interesting. I certainly felt a chill when I read about the Borg absorbing ships now and even whole planets: Pluto and its moons being eaten by the Borg is certainly not something that left me cold and it definitely applied to the way the Borg developed a new means of reproduction.

From early on there was the solution in form of the Doomsday machine and the Endgame virus. PAD provided a good background for both in this book, something I welcomed, and used them very skilfully. Until the end I was kept on my toes, wondering how things will end. The drama built up very well because there was no straightforward defeat of the Borg, as it should be

It is not a secret at all that PAD is not a Voyager fan. I was really curious how he will write Janeway and Seven. That Janeway didn`t listen to Lady Q`s warnings didn`t surprise me and was definitely in character. PAD didn`t put Janeway in a good light at all. In the TV series is was often the case that Janeway was torn from one extreme to the other, she certainly wasn`t developed consistently. I think it would have been fairer to Janeway`s character to thrive for at least some kind of balance but I can understand why PAD chose otherwise. When Janeway was turned into the Borg Queen, my first instinct was feeling a strong wave of Schadenfreude. Later I felt bad about that because nobody deserves Janeway`s fate. I welcome it that at the end, it was Janeway who made the defeat possible, who delivered the final blow that saved Earth from destruction.

I would never have imagined that PAD would kill Janeway in this book and that means, that Pocket Books was given permission to do so. I don`t see any believable way to resurrect Janeway and that makes me wonder, is that the end of Voyager Relaunch? I doubt it that it would make sense to write these books after Janeway`s death. I must admit, the memorial scene was touching. Me personally, I have no problems with Janeway`s death. But I wonder if this move is fair to the Voyager fans who also exist. I am sure, if Picard would have been killed instead, the outcry would be huge and I very much doubt anyway that Pocket Books will ever get permission to do that. I am actually surprised that Janeway`s death caused so little reaction and by now, I have read quite a few comments.

I like it that PAD kept the reader guessing about Seven`s fate. I am so glad that she survived because I would certainly be upset if PAD would have killed her as well! The way PAD wrote her appealed to me very much. He showed her complexity very well indeed and presented her as a very likeable, brave character. I smiled when PAD also made comments about Seven`s looks and I couldn`t agree more with him. Especially after this book, I doubt it that there will be more Voyager Relaunch books as we know them so far. But especially after this book I am hoping at the same time that Seven will still have an important place in the current Star Trek book universe.

Speaking of Seven, I want to use this opportunity to also comment on the cover. After finishing the book, I can see even more that this simple idea is also providing a powerful teaser. The reflections from the Borg ship on Seven`s sad face look like tears. PAD described her loss very well and it was appropriate to at least mention that Chakotay was also struggling to come to terms with Janeway`s death.

I am glad that the book also included another guest. Especially because I have been waiting for a new New Frontier book for a while now. I loved Calhoun`s guest appearance towards the end of the book. I couldn`t help, I had to remember that Seven lost the woman who was much more than her friend but her mentor. The relationship between Picard and Calhoun is not so different. Janeway shaped a lot of Seven`s life and Picard did the same with Calhoun. It was great seeing Picard and Calhoun together again, fighting together. I also had to think again that whatever turned Jellico around in his attitude towards Calhoun must have been remarkable because especially in early NF, I would never have imagined that Calhoun would have been allowed to act as a commodore, leading several ships into battle. PAD also inserted some nice humour here I very much welcomed and I keep wondering, when will the next NF book be finally out?

PAD likes putting Spock into NF and it was a nice surprise to meet him in “Before Dishonor” as well. He certainly is a very wise man and this showed especially when he was dealing with T`Lana. I think PAD writes Spock very well and I hope he will keep appearing in his books.

Looking at the regular TNG characters, PAD wrote Picard and Beverly very well, very much in the NF style I like so much. Their parts don`t offer any special surprised in this book but that can`t happen in every novel. It was time to focus on other characters and I am glad that especially Seven was given the opportunity to really shine in a novel.

Worf was great. PAD found a good balance I enjoyed very much: He was the mature Worf he evolved into, especially in more recent books, but we could see her more than usual nowadays that he is nevertheless a Klingon warrior. I don`t think his emotional reaction towards the mutiny is a throwback or even out of character. I think his reactions were very understandable and they showed very well that it is not a good idea at all to make a Klingon angry. PAD also gave him some great, hilarious lines.

I also liked the part Geordi played in this story. In his own way, Geordi also left an important contribution by appealing to Seven`s humanity and his empathy. PAD showed him as the kind, gentle and caring man he is and I think it is about time that Geordi gets more to do in future and is giving more background.

As I said, I love the book but there is one aspect I am definitely not happy with. With the start of TNG Relaunch new characters were introduced that looked promising: T`Lana, Leybenzon and Kahota. Leybenzon but especially Kahota fit well into the crew and there was no reason whatsoever to imagine they would start a mutiny against Picard and certainly not for the reasons given. In the case of T`Lana I think it is very regrettable that she regressed this much but I can`t say she was not in character.

This threesome who initiated the mutiny displayed an amount of stupidity, narrow mindedness and arrogance that was astounding. Their reason for it was that Picard refused to follow orders and instead did what he thought needs to be done. What they wanted was that Picard returns to Earth as ordered and be one of many ships fighting against the Borg in a suicide mission. It didn`t matter what arguments Picard had, even what actually happened after this order was given, they stuck to the idea that orders are orders no matter what. The longer the story went on, the more ridiculous the whole background of the mutiny became but still, all three were locked in a mindset that reminded me of a broken record. Their minds were literally stuck, unable and unwilling to move and adapt to what was actually required.

I was torn between laughing at their stupidity and clumsiness as well as some of the jokes PAD inserted at their expense, being disappointed and even a bit annoyed that characters that seemed promising have been corrupted this way and feeling sorry for the next author/s who have the task to deal with this mess afterwards.

T`Lana is certainly irredeemable after what happened. With the choice Jellico announced, stay with Picard or resign, I think she will resign and good riddance to her. T`Lana could never function as counsellor on the Enterprise again. Instead Jellico could have been honest and offer her a post as Starfleet`s watchdog. Picard would have done his best to keep her as far away from him as possible and I can`t imagine that many people would come to her with their problems. I am hoping that T`Lana will indeed be gone in the next TNG Relaunch book and I am not interested to meet her again.

I am not sure if I would have been so forgiving towards Leybenzon and Kahota, maybe just dismissing their actions as an attack of madness. What possessed them is a mystery to me and if it was a kind of madness, what will happen the next time when there is a serious crisis and Picard decides to follow his own judgement against orders? Leybenzon is a veteran of the Dominion War who wasn`t shaped in the Starfleet Academy. I would have thought he is much more able to be an original thinker who knows that the situation you are faced with can change very quickly and that just relying on orders from people sitting far away can even be dangerous. Not to mention that Picard`s history with the Borg should tell him that he knows better what he is doing than anybody else, except Seven. And Kahota, who was hand picked by Data and has her family including three young children on Earth, is actually agreeing that it is better to be part of a suicide mission, to be one amongst many ships? Her lack of trust in Picard and participation in this insane mutiny makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I think instead of writing a mutiny that seemed more of a dark comedy than an actual drama, it would have been better if these people actually had a reason to mutiny I could understand. Understanding such motives and agreeing are not necessarily the same but I would have liked to continue to respect at least Leybenzon and Kahota.

We also shouldn`t forget that this threesome had a lot of help on board by officers who followed them. Why did they do that? Are these three instigators of the mutiny that much respected, did they have so compelling arguments or a charisma they couldn`t resist? I don`t understand that because I would answer all these questions with no.

I wonder how this mess can be fixed. I would think that jJust never mention it again is not an option that would be available. I am very curious how Christopher L. Bennett will handle the Enterprise crew in the next TNG Relaunch book, “Greater than the Sum”.
 
Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Baerbel Haddrell said:
It is not a secret at all that PAD is not a Voyager fan. I was really curious how he will write Janeway and Seven. That Janeway didn`t listen to Lady Q`s warnings didn`t surprise me and was definitely in character. PAD didn`t put Janeway in a good light at all.

Actually I thought he portrayed Janeway rather sympathetically and in character (insofar as it's possible to define her character in a consistent way).

I would never have imagined that PAD would kill Janeway in this book and that means, that Pocket Books was given permission to do so. I don`t see any believable way to resurrect Janeway and that makes me wonder, is that the end of Voyager Relaunch? I doubt it that it would make sense to write these books after Janeway`s death.

The DS9R thrived without Sisko for some time. Note, however, that the last VGR-R novel was in mid- to late 2378 and this book is in mid-2380. There's still room to fill in the stuff in between.


We also shouldn`t forget that this threesome had a lot of help on board by officers who followed them. Why did they do that? Are these three instigators of the mutiny that much respected, did they have so compelling arguments or a charisma they couldn`t resist? I don`t understand that because I would answer all these questions with no.

Well, strictly speaking, it could be argued that Picard was the mutineer, since he was defying Admiral Nechayev's orders, and the others were simply enforcing the admiral's orders. In any hierarchical organization, the majority of people will usually obey the orders of their superiors, even if they believe those orders to be wrong. That's what military personnel are trained to do. When torn between two superiors, they defaulted to the higher one.
 
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