Battling apathy

[Sci]

Titan was off on deep space exploration but it seems to be bopping back to Federation space or at least near to it, probably to make crossovers easier.

I have no idea whatsoever why you would say that.

The U.S.S. Titan first left explored space at the beginning of Book 3, Orion's Hounds. It was briefly transported back to local space in the Destiny trilogy. At the very beginning of the next book after DEST, Over A Torrent Sea, the Titan was back in unexplored space. Three TTN novels have been published post-DEST: Torrent Sea, Synthesis, and, now, Typhon Pact: Seize the Fire. None of them have been set in local space.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

I'm sorry. Having something to say and having chatted with a number of authors here, for better or worse <grin>, I hardly think the solution is to just leave. Do you really want Trek forums to consist of people who do nothing but shower praise upon whatever Star Trek happens to be plastered on this month?

Disagreeing with the direction of parts of the franchise doesn't mean disagreeing with the franchise as a whole. I've been reading and watching Trek for too long to simply give up. I've outlasted the Arnold era. The time of no books. I'll outlast this dark period as well. It's just this time I'll be waiting it out on the internet. You won't get rid of me that easily <grin>.

I for one hope you stick around. I don't post much, but I find I agree with you pretty often.

I've had a lot of good things to say about the Trek Lit line in the past, but right now I feel the whole line is floundering and I don't have many good things to say about it. I think most people who aren't happy with the line now have valid points to make, and it isn't some sort of negativity fest. I think most of us were drawn into the line because we were excited about them, and have every right to be concerned about the direction and quality of many of the books right now.

I'm noticing that some of the posters here who were once extremely positive about the books are becoming more and more critical.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Titan was off on deep space exploration but it seems to be bopping back to Federation space or at least near to it, probably to make crossovers easier.

I have no idea whatsoever why you would say that.

The U.S.S. Titan first left explored space at the beginning of Book 3, Orion's Hounds. It was briefly transported back to local space in the Destiny trilogy. At the very beginning of the next book after DEST, Over A Torrent Sea, the Titan was back in unexplored space. Three TTN novels have been published post-DEST: Torrent Sea, Synthesis, and, now, Typhon Pact: Seize the Fire. None of them have been set in local space.

I'm just starting Seize the Fire but the Gorn were encountered in TOS and aren't mentioned again. They don't appear to be a large power. The impression I have, which is probably different from the authors, is that the Gorn are a fairly minor power, occupying a fairly small area of space compared to their better known neighbours. Add to it, even if the Gorn that Titan encounters are also on a deep space mission, that it's rather implausible the they just happen to meet up at the same time as the other ships are also dealing with the Typhon Pact. I know coincidences happen but the crossovers make them more likely.

 

[kkozoriz1]

I'm sorry. Having something to say and having chatted with a number of authors here, for better or worse <grin>, I hardly think the solution is to just leave. Do you really want Trek forums to consist of people who do nothing but shower praise upon whatever Star Trek happens to be plastered on this month?

Disagreeing with the direction of parts of the franchise doesn't mean disagreeing with the franchise as a whole. I've been reading and watching Trek for too long to simply give up. I've outlasted the Arnold era. The time of no books. I'll outlast this dark period as well. It's just this time I'll be waiting it out on the internet. You won't get rid of me that easily <grin>.

I for one hope you stick around. I don't post much, but I find I agree with you pretty often.

I've had a lot of good things to say about the Trek Lit line in the past, but right now I feel the whole line is floundering and I don't have many good things to say about it. I think most people who aren't happy with the line now have valid points to make, and it isn't some sort of negativity fest. I think most of us were drawn into the line because we were excited about them, and have every right to be concerned about the direction and quality of many of the books right now.

I'm noticing that some of the posters here who were once extremely positive about the books are becoming more and more critical.

Thanks for the kind words but I'm not going anywhere. I'll continue to pick up the books I think may be interesting and posting my opinions, good and bad. At some point things will start looking up and I don't want to miss it.

 

[sfroth]

Titan was off on deep space exploration but it seems to be bopping back to Federation space or at least near to it, probably to make crossovers easier.

I have no idea whatsoever why you would say that.

...

Three TTN novels have been published post-DEST: Torrent Sea, Synthesis, and, now, Typhon Pact: Seize the Fire. None of them have been set in local space.

I agreed with your argument before I read Seize the Fire, but that book got me to the point where I actually agree that forcing Titan into the Typhon Pact books was a major disservice to the series.

Spoiler: Seize the Fire

In this story, Titan just happened to stumble into the same area of space as this Gorn group, and had a ticking clock throughout the book of the Typhon Pact fleet arriving. Even if the author of the book claims that the story takes place oh so far away, both of these facts made that hard to swallow. Given the requirement of the story, I would have been much happier if Titan had intercepted communication from the Gorn fleet and tracked them down, or something similar, rather than just happening to be studying the same phenomenon at the same time. But having the threat of the TP fleet was what really made the story not feel like a Titan story, out there.

Overall, I hope this is the last time for a while that Titan is involved in a crossover.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Exactly and that's one of the problems with having the 24th century books all in the same time period (more or less). When we have these crossovers (and you know that there will be more of them) then, no matter how unlikely, all the hero ships will be involved in some way. How many crossovers did TNG and DS9 shar while they were on at the same time? It's like Worf JUST happening to show up during the movies. "Hey, Wor'f here, time for a big event!"

 

[cmdr_forst]

I have some gripes with individual novels and miniseries (I was not a fan of Destiny) and I am not at all enamored with the direction the DS9 relaunch has taken over the past few years. But my big beef with Trek literature these days, aside from lengthy delays between novels that I realize cannot be helped, are the constant crossovers. Or at least they seem constant. I loved Invasion! when it was first published but none of the follow-up crossovers have recaptured the excitement of that miniseries (perhaps understandably; it was the very first big crossover as I recall).

I suppose cutting back the number of novels published each year has only made it seem like the crossovers are more numerous. With fewer standalone novels coming out for each respective series has made it seem like we are jumping from one crossover to the next: The Captain's Table, Gateways, Destiny and now The Typhon Pact. But I guess those were spread over, what, eight years? Because I read TOS, TNG, DS9 and New Frontier almost exclusively, maybe the pickings have not been quite as slim overall as it has seemed to me.

I guess this long-winded blabbering really does not have much basis in reality, does it? There have not been all that many crossovers and aside from Destiny --> The Typhon Pact they have not really come one after another in quick succession.

 

[Therin of Andor]

my big beef with Trek literature these days, aside from lengthy delays between novels that I realize cannot be helped, are the constant crossovers...

I don't really even think of "The Typhon Pact" as a set of crossovers, merely the next four new novels set in the midst of the political fallout of the "Destiny" trilogy.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Except that they all cover the new political rival on the scene. It would have been more interesting to allow the Pact to be slowly revealed. Now we've got "Hey, it's the Typhon Pact!." No real background on it. No mystery. They're simply presented as a going concern.

The three major problems are:
1 - all the 24th century books are in the same time period. If there's an ongoing arc they all tend to feed it. It makes you feel that you could miss out on a big point if you're not reading them all. Just look a the topics on "what do I have to read next/first". We get background but as the stories get more complex, so will the recaps. (I'm not counting NF since Peter David has his own little sandbox he's playing in for the most part and after reading Before Dishonor I'd prefer he stick with his own toys.)

2 - The crossovers put the characters in service of the story rather than the other way around. The plot of the crossovers requires that the characters be in certain situations, usually involving other hero ships and crews. This is a lesser problem in TP as compared to Destiny but still requires coincidences

Spoiler: Bashier and Ezri fom ZSG

(Ezri just happens to be the Captain that Bashier has to deal with and yet, after an awkward dinner moment the whole thing between then just sort of peters out.)

3 - With fewer books and more series the ability to have a longer arc within a series is compromised. Some other series or crossover is popping up and disrupting the flow. Let's get to know more about Titan's diverse crew, the new folks on the Enterprise and find out what's going on on DS9 for a change.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Except that they all cover the new political rival on the scene. It would have been more interesting to allow the Pact to be slowly revealed. Now we've got "Hey, it's the Typhon Pact!." No real background on it. No mystery. They're simply presented as a going concern.

You're reading too much advance publicity. The Pact membership is revealed across the four books, with more intrigue, and details of new members/developments revealed as the books go on, but the books also work as standalone adventures, set against a backdrop of post-Destiny fallout.

1 - all the 24th century books are in the same time period.

Well, considering that Marco and Margaret fended off a barage of "When will the 24th century books line up?" over several years on this BBS, this is an example of Pocket never being able to please everyone.

If there's an ongoing arc they all tend to feed it.

By popular demand.

It makes you feel that you could miss out on a big point if you're not reading them all.

Or it doesn't. Other standalone ST books often mention previous offscreen and offpage adventures that were never in any other book, episode or movie. It's like Sulu and Kang being revealed as having had an extensive adversarial background before ST VI, but not revealed or even hinted at until VOY's "Flashback".

People could (and do) view "Flashback", or read its novelization, and worry that they've missed an unseen series of adventures where Kang and Sulu do battle during the TOS movie era. Of course, we eventually did get a novel ("Forged in Fire") that tied these connections to DS9's "Blood Oath", but that was many years later.

Just look a the topics on "what do I have to read next/first".

By a tiny proportion of the readership. And way back in 1980, I was often asked by ST fans - hundreds of times! - whether they had to read Pocket ST novels in number order, because the Bantams had not been numbered. Other members of my club used to say they'd only read the novels that "really happened", and they'd ask why events of the 80s novels were never mentioned by the ongoing TOS movie series. This was long before Richard Arnold started to talk about what was canonical and non canonical.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Except that they all cover the new political rival on the scene. It would have been more interesting to allow the Pact to be slowly revealed. Now we've got "Hey, it's the Typhon Pact!." No real background on it. No mystery. They're simply presented as a going concern.

You're reading too much advance publicity. The Pact membership is revealed across the four books, with more intrigue, and details of new members/developments revealed as the books go on, but the books also work as standalone adventures, set against a backdrop of post-Destiny fallout.

1 - all the 24th century books are in the same time period.

Well, considering that Marco and Margaret fended off a barage of "When will the 24th century books line up?" over several years on this BBS, this is an example of Pocket never being able to please everyone.

By popular demand.

It makes you feel that you could miss out on a big point if you're not reading them all.

Or it doesn't. Other standalone ST books often mention previous offscreen and offpage adventures that were never in any other book, episode or movie. It's like Sulu and Kang being revealed as having had an extensive adversarial background before ST VI, but not revealed or even hinted at until VOY's "Flashback".

People could (and do) view "Flashback", or read its novelization, and worry that they've missed an unseen series of adventures where Kang and Sulu do battle during the TOS movie era. Of course, we eventually did get a novel ("Forged in Fire") that tied these connections to DS9's "Blood Oath", but that was many years later.

Just look a the topics on "what do I have to read next/first".

By a tiny proportion of the readership. And way back in 1980, I was often asked by ST fans - hundreds of times! - whether they had to read Pocket ST novels in number order, because the Bantams had not been numbered. Other members of my club used to say they'd only read the novels that "really happened", and they'd ask why events of the 80s novels were never mentioned by the ongoing TOS movie series. This was long before Richard Arnold started to talk about what was canonical and non canonical.

We find out about the Pact in A Singular Destiny. Once we get into the Typhon pact series we know who they are. The Pact is established and functioning. Let me put it this way, A Singular Desting would have made a better mini series than the Typhon Pact has as far as establishing the Pact as a Federation rival. Instead we get "They're forming an alliance to challenge the Federation. Here they are, fully formed for the most part. And here's our crews as they coincidentally each encounter a member of this alliance.

It's like the glossing over of the DS9R storyline we've seen so far. "Lots of stuff has changed. See how much things have changed? Wow, it must have been really interesting but we're going to ignore the story we spent years building up to and tell you this one instead."

They characters are being used to advance the stories rather than the stories being used to advance the characters. They've become the little chessmen on the big crossover storyline arc.

And in terms of the question about reading the bantam stories in line the simple answer is nope, read them in whatever order you like. Compare that to "well for Worf you have to read series X #1 & 2 followed by this novel and then these three over here and then this big arc sets up this one that leads to this point. An that's for one character.

 

[Christopher]

We find out about the Pact in A Singular Destiny. Once we get into the Typhon pact series we know who they are. The Pact is established and functioning.

Because the books take place around a year after ASD, give or take a few months.

And here's our crews as they coincidentally each encounter a member of this alliance.

How is it coincidental? It's not as if the books all happen at the same time. Since the Pact is now a major player in quadrant affairs, it's natural that the Federation would have multiple encounters with them. This series is simply focusing on those places and times within 2382 where such encounters occurred.

Of course there's some degree of coincidence in that these events come to the attention of Riker and Bashir and Sisko and Picard rather than, say, Captain X. S. A'p'ost'ro'pheez of Diacritica IX and Admiral "One-Shot" Neverseenbefore. But that's just the nature of series fiction, and it's been part of Trek from the beginning. (What are the odds that the same starship captain and crew would make the first contact with the Romulans in 100 years, discover three separate time-travel mechanisms within a single year, be present at Organia when the treaty was imposed, thwart at least two extragalactic invasions, save the Earth from three different alien probes, and save the Federation President from assassination?)

It's like the glossing over of the DS9R storyline we've seen so far. "Lots of stuff has changed. See how much things have changed? Wow, it must have been really interesting but we're going to ignore the story we spent years building up to and tell you this one instead."

...

And in terms of the question about reading the bantam stories in line the simple answer is nope, read them in whatever order you like. Compare that to "well for Worf you have to read series X #1 & 2 followed by this novel and then these three over here and then this big arc sets up this one that leads to this point. An that's for one character.

So first you complain that the books don't have enough connective tissue between them, and then two paragraphs later you complain that they're too interconnected? Stop, you're giving me whiplash.

As for that last paragraph, nobody's saying that you "have" to read all those books to understand what's going on. Each book is designed to be complete in itself. The interconnectivity is a bonus for those people who are interested in it, people who want to follow a character's larger arc. But those who aren't interested in the broader connectivity don't even need to know it exists in order to have a satisfying reading experience.

 

[Technobuilder]

*Whistles* Still wondering about the Ascendants storyline...

 

[kkozoriz1]

We find out about the Pact in A Singular Destiny. Once we get into the Typhon pact series we know who they are. The Pact is established and functioning.

Because the books take place around a year after ASD, give or take a few months.

And here's our crews as they coincidentally each encounter a member of this alliance.

How is it coincidental? It's not as if the books all happen at the same time. Since the Pact is now a major player in quadrant affairs, it's natural that the Federation would have multiple encounters with them. This series is simply focusing on those places and times within 2382 where such encounters occurred.

Of course there's some degree of coincidence in that these events come to the attention of Riker and Bashir and Sisko and Picard rather than, say, Captain X. S. A'p'ost'ro'pheez of Diacritica IX and Admiral "One-Shot" Neverseenbefore. But that's just the nature of series fiction, and it's been part of Trek from the beginning. (What are the odds that the same starship captain and crew would make the first contact with the Romulans in 100 years, discover three separate time-travel mechanisms within a single year, be present at Organia when the treaty was imposed, thwart at least two extragalactic invasions, save the Earth from three different alien probes, and save the Federation President from assassination?)

It's like the glossing over of the DS9R storyline we've seen so far. "Lots of stuff has changed. See how much things have changed? Wow, it must have been really interesting but we're going to ignore the story we spent years building up to and tell you this one instead."

...

And in terms of the question about reading the bantam stories in line the simple answer is nope, read them in whatever order you like. Compare that to "well for Worf you have to read series X #1 & 2 followed by this novel and then these three over here and then this big arc sets up this one that leads to this point. An that's for one character.

So first you complain that the books don't have enough connective tissue between them, and then two paragraphs later you complain that they're too interconnected? Stop, you're giving me whiplash.

As for that last paragraph, nobody's saying that you "have" to read all those books to understand what's going on. Each book is designed to be complete in itself. The interconnectivity is a bonus for those people who are interested in it, people who want to follow a character's larger arc. But those who aren't interested in the broader connectivity don't even need to know it exists in order to have a satisfying reading experience.

I'm saying if we HAVE to have the interconnected stories then they could be handled better. We go from Sonek Pran having to play connect the dots to a fully functional state in a matter of months. I would have preferred to see a few clus scattered among the earler novels, points that would show the formation of the Pact leading up to the big reveal. As it is, I'm the one with whiplash. Boom! Destiny. Boom! Typhon Pact mini series. Everything has to be a big event. Preferably with lots of explosions and as huge body count.

I know I'm in the minority here but I'm not alone. Of course, from all indications, the number of people reading the books is dropping all the time anyway. The way things are going, the point may be moot before too much longer.

 

[Therin of Andor]

They characters are being used to advance the stories rather than the stories being used to advance the characters.

Since when is one choice a legitimate literary device and the other not?

It's like the old "starships vs floating heads" cover art argument. Either one is equally valid.

And in terms of the question about reading the bantam stories in line the simple answer is nope, read them in whatever order you like.

My point was, that people still used to ask that question, way back in the early 80s, just as they often assumed that early Pocket ST novels had to be read in number order. You seemed to be saying that potential readers today, asking the question of "What should I read before this?", was a new phenomenon, forced upon us due to the crossover storylines and shared 24th century political backdrop.

 

[BillJ]

Of course, from all indications, the number of people reading the books is dropping all the time anyway. The way things are going, the point may be moot before too much longer.

Don't say that. You'll get the writers and supporters in here to shout you down in no time flat.

I've been pointing to troubling trends in the market that I live in (plus the constant editorial turnover) for about eighteen months now... but I keep getting told I have no idea what I'm talking about and that everything is rosy.

 

[Thrawn]

^ Um, of course sales are dropping. Clearly. Sales are dropping because:

1) The source material hasn't been on air in over a decade, with the exception of Enterprise, which didn't really have many fans in the first place.

2) Sales of all books are dropping.

3) More and more Trek / sci-fi sales are happening with online ordering or e-books. This is a fairly well documented fact; Ordover even said so himself.

Nonetheless: several sci-fi imprints survive with a remarkably small readership. There are more copies of each monthly Star Trek novel in all of the local bookstores I frequent than most releases by other authors I read that aren't tie-ins. From what I've been able to figure out, advances for Trek are roughly comparable to advances for other mid-sales sci-fi, meaning the sales would likely be roughly comparable as well.

ANY ongoing series has slowly diminishing sales as it goes. Just look at comics. Doesn't mean it's not worth doing, or that it will end any time soon.

 

[BillJ]

Nonetheless: several sci-fi imprints survive with a remarkably small readership. There are more copies of each monthly Star Trek novel in all of the local bookstores I frequent than most releases by other authors I read that aren't tie-ins.

I think the one rub here is the licensing fees. Even though they are all technically part of the same company, Pocket is probably 'paying' a substantial licensing fee. I'm sure that the 'several sci-fi imprints survive with a remarkably small readership' pay no where near the licensing fees that Pocket pays for Star Trek.

 

[Sci]

I'm fairly certain that if Star Trek novels were no longer profitable, they would have reduced the publishing schedule to something much less than 12 MMPBs a year and/or canceled the line alltogether. That we still get 12 books a year to me indicates that sales are still profitable even if S&S has been having other problems.

 

[Christopher]

From what I've been able to figure out, advances for Trek are roughly comparable to advances for other mid-sales sci-fi, meaning the sales would likely be roughly comparable as well.

My understanding is that tie-in advances are higher than for original fiction, as compensation for the royalties being smaller (because they're split with the licensor). Never having sold an original novel yet, though, I don't know for sure how they compare.

I'm fairly certain that if Star Trek novels were no longer profitable, they would have reduced the publishing schedule to something much less than 12 MMPBs a year and/or canceled the line alltogether. That we still get 12 books a year to me indicates that sales are still profitable even if S&S has been having other problems.

Indeed. I think it was Marco who often pointed out that, compared to most media tie-in book series, 12 MMPBs and several trade PBs per year is an exceptionally prolific publishing schedule. And remember, for the first 7-8 years of Pocket's Trek publishing program, it put out no more than 6 books a year.