Well, even the original comic was a little surrealistic. It's Moore after all.
Batman: The Killing Joke animated movie from Bruce Timm
- Thread starter Turtletrekker
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Azzarello has a few things to say
http://www.comicbookresources.com/a...screenwriter-explains-controversial-sex-scene
"she controls the men in her life" - talk about doubling down on the stupid.
Sounds like they made a valid elaboration of the existing material. However, since the existing material is fundamentally flawed and they're being doggedly faithful to it, the end result is bound to be problematic at best.
I was never a fan of the idea of Bruce and Barb having a relationship when they hinted at in in Batman Beyond. I mean I see why Barbara would be interested, but you'd think Bruce would know better.
I do wonder if part of the trouble is that (to me at least) Batgirl has always lacked that defining moment that makes a character who they are. In most accounts she basically becomes Batgirl because it's fun, to rebel against her father and I suppose mostly to prove she can. Leaving that kind of hole in her characterisation means that when TKJ happened, it filled the void and unfortunately became her defining moment.
Sure it gave us Oracle, which I've always thought is a much more interesting version of the character, but you don't *need* TKJ to have Oracle. You just need a non-functioning lower spine. It's odd to think that the otherwise pretty lame show 'Birds of Prey' handled this better while still honouring TKJ.
I was never a fan of the idea of Bruce and Barb having a relationship when they hinted at in in Batman Beyond. I mean I see why Barbara would be interested, but you'd think Bruce would know better.
I do wonder if part of the trouble is that (to me at least) Batgirl has always lacked that defining moment that makes a character who they are. In most accounts she basically becomes Batgirl because it's fun, to rebel against her father and I suppose mostly to prove she can. Leaving that kind of hole in her characterisation means that when TKJ happened, it filled the void and unfortunately became her defining moment.
Sure it gave us Oracle, which I've always thought is a much more interesting version of the character, but you don't *need* TKJ to have Oracle. You just need a non-functioning lower spine. It's odd to think that the otherwise pretty lame show 'Birds of Prey' handled this better while still honouring TKJ.
Well, at least he's honest about his motives.
My understanding is that this is changed as well - she becomes Batgirl to attract the attention of Batman.
I think it's a fair observation that to a certain extent (depending on the writer of course) this was also in the comics. The thing is so far as I'm aware (Batman Beyond notwithstanding) it was only ever one-way and usually more of an undercurrent than anything massively overt.
It makes sense from a certain point of view and is somewhat consistent with how Barbara's motivations always seemed to be a little fuzzy and ill defined. But it shouldn't be the prime motivating factor, nor do I think it's good characterisation for Bruce to reciprocate.
That said, Bruce has always had both bad luck and poor judgement when it comes to his romantic partners. Selina and Talia being the two main ones, both of which are guaranteed to be doomed relationships. Still, with Barbara it just seems almost incestuous.
I think it's problematical for a number of reasons regardless of what was established in cartoon series that at this point are 20 years old - at the time the killing joke was written, Batgirl was a pretty minor character who'd largely fallen out of favour with TPTB. However in 2016, the context is different - she's a successful hero in her own right with a well fleshed out back story and a legion of young fans (many of who were not born when the Killing Joke was written) who like this young hero with her own agency.
So within a 2016 context, a film which features a young women who becomes a superhero to attract the sexual attention of an older man, is then ditched after a fling, raped and vanishes from the story so the male hero and her father can angst about what has happened to her and seek vengeance is a pretty poor show all around.
So within a 2016 context, a film which features a young women who becomes a superhero to attract the sexual attention of an older man, is then ditched after a fling, raped and vanishes from the story so the male hero and her father can angst about what has happened to her and seek vengeance is a pretty poor show all around.
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I picked up on that. And in Batman Beyond, she is walking again. She had a hard life. That was the point.
In that particular continuity, Barbara was never a paraplegic. She left a little while after Tim, following the "incident" with the Joker. Aside from a mention of Bruce having sewn up the bullet holes in her old suit, there's no allusion to her ever being crippled.
They did consider doing an Oracle/Birds of Prey episode for JLU, but it never got further than a general notion and it wouldn't have been permanent paralysis that grounded her, but merely a broken leg (from skiing with Kara of all things IIRC.)
It was only hinted at in retrospect on 'Batman Beyond' and then just by way of a significant look from Barb to Terry. If I remember this right it would have happened at some point after JLU episodes (not counting 'Epilogue' for obvious reasons) and before the RotJ flashback. The exact timeline is intentionally fuzzy, so there's some leeway for interpretation. Still, it would probably mean Barb would have been more like in her early to mid 20's rather than a college age teen. Still creepy, but within the realms of possibility.
CBR has some quotes from an interview Bruce Timm did with Vulture.
I also read the full Vulture interview and there is one other interesting bit that no one else has commented on so far, a
I can kind of see some of what he was going for in general, but I still think it was a weird choice to go that way with the characters.
I think I might be a little more open to it if this was a totally original story, but for something that is a direct adaptation of preexisting story, this is a pretty big change to make.
I also read the full Vulture interview and there is one other interesting bit that no one else has commented on so far, a
Apparently there is a scene involving prostitutes the Joker visited whenever he broke out of Arkham, but this time he didn't and one of them theorizes he found himself another girl. When Vulture's writer asks if that was supposed to imply he raped Baraba Timm says he didn't interpret it that way.
I think I might be a little more open to it if this was a totally original story, but for something that is a direct adaptation of preexisting story, this is a pretty big change to make.
This mash-up from Batman Beyond and The New Batman Adventures (BTAS renamed in 1997) partially explains what went down.
Scan from Bruce's computer on Batman Beyond
Then you had Babs calling Bruce in the DTV Legend of Batwoman movie. Done by the same people who did BTAS/TNBA/BB/JL.
And then you have this addition from Batman Beyond 2.0. Which further explores the BrucexBab relationship, but with Dick's input.
http://view-comic.com/batman-beyond-2-0-028-2014/
So yeah, Bruce Timm has been pushing his BrucexBabs ship since the 90s. With TKJ however, he was able to push things to the next level.
Batman: The Killing Joke
My Grade: A
_____________________________________
The Killing Joke is one of those "classic" stories/graphic novels in the Batman mythos a story that showed off some different, even darker, sides of characters gave us something of an origin story for The Joker while initially done out of nothing more than shock-value for a unwanted character eventually led to one of the stronger characters in the DC story.
Batman: The Killing Joke is a decades old story that still holds strong today even given the various reboots and reworkings in DCs book continuity; one of those reworkings undoing the big event in this story, but many still see it as a defining moment for Batman, The Joker and Jim Gordon.
Adapting a graphic novel to the big screen brings with it challenges, this movie had most of those challenges solved for it by borrowing the animation style and look from the Batman Animated Series as well as bringing back the voice actors for Batman (Kevin Conroy) and The Joker (Mark Hamil) but another challenge was extending the story enough to significant runtime. The movie solves this by adding in an entirely new opening act centered around Barbara "Batgirl" Gordon and her relationship with Batman as the two work together to take down a group of criminals, a battle that takes Batgirl to the edge she fears and the two heroes make decisions that may deeply impact the way some see the characters and while uncomfortable in context it's not entirely "wrong."
After Batgirl hangs up her cowl the movie adaptation of the book starts and more or less sticks to the book (though it has been a while since I've read it), picking up some months later with the Joker having escaped Arkham Asylum and is a danger again to the city of Gotham but Batman has no idea how personal Joker wants to make this. Intercut with Batman's activities we see The Joker's with flashbacks to his pre-Joker life and the events that lead to him becoming Batman's greatest foe.
The movie opens with, at least in my Fathom Events showing, an interview with Mark Hamil and his big start in Hollywood on Star Wars and his transition to voice acting for Batman: The Animated Series and we then go into the movie with some narration from Batgirl over the first segment.
The movie's animation looks good and very reminiscent of the animated series between and seems to be a mix of computer and classic animation the voice talent is very well used and not just the talent used for Batman and Joker but also the talent used for Batgirl and Jim Gordon.
Overall and enjoyable movie if you're aware of this classic book. If you've read it you'll enjoy seeing it brought to life though it's very likely the opening segment will bring a LOT of questions and mixed reactions. If you've never read The Killing Joke or even heard of it, but you're a fan of Batman it'll be something for you to enjoy too.
Stay tuned through the first segment of the credits as there's a nice tag-scene dealing with the fate of one of the characters. In my screening after all of the credits there was to a be a segment about the production of the movie's score which I didn't stick around for. Likely will be picking up the DVD/BD of this when it is released this week. In a year where we get the mixed-reaction Batman v. Superman this is a good movie to have in order to provide us with a real, solid, Batman story.
My Grade: A
_____________________________________
The Killing Joke is one of those "classic" stories/graphic novels in the Batman mythos a story that showed off some different, even darker, sides of characters gave us something of an origin story for The Joker while initially done out of nothing more than shock-value for a unwanted character eventually led to one of the stronger characters in the DC story.
Batman: The Killing Joke is a decades old story that still holds strong today even given the various reboots and reworkings in DCs book continuity; one of those reworkings undoing the big event in this story, but many still see it as a defining moment for Batman, The Joker and Jim Gordon.
Adapting a graphic novel to the big screen brings with it challenges, this movie had most of those challenges solved for it by borrowing the animation style and look from the Batman Animated Series as well as bringing back the voice actors for Batman (Kevin Conroy) and The Joker (Mark Hamil) but another challenge was extending the story enough to significant runtime. The movie solves this by adding in an entirely new opening act centered around Barbara "Batgirl" Gordon and her relationship with Batman as the two work together to take down a group of criminals, a battle that takes Batgirl to the edge she fears and the two heroes make decisions that may deeply impact the way some see the characters and while uncomfortable in context it's not entirely "wrong."
After Batgirl hangs up her cowl the movie adaptation of the book starts and more or less sticks to the book (though it has been a while since I've read it), picking up some months later with the Joker having escaped Arkham Asylum and is a danger again to the city of Gotham but Batman has no idea how personal Joker wants to make this. Intercut with Batman's activities we see The Joker's with flashbacks to his pre-Joker life and the events that lead to him becoming Batman's greatest foe.
The movie opens with, at least in my Fathom Events showing, an interview with Mark Hamil and his big start in Hollywood on Star Wars and his transition to voice acting for Batman: The Animated Series and we then go into the movie with some narration from Batgirl over the first segment.
The movie's animation looks good and very reminiscent of the animated series between and seems to be a mix of computer and classic animation the voice talent is very well used and not just the talent used for Batman and Joker but also the talent used for Batgirl and Jim Gordon.
Overall and enjoyable movie if you're aware of this classic book. If you've read it you'll enjoy seeing it brought to life though it's very likely the opening segment will bring a LOT of questions and mixed reactions. If you've never read The Killing Joke or even heard of it, but you're a fan of Batman it'll be something for you to enjoy too.
Stay tuned through the first segment of the credits as there's a nice tag-scene dealing with the fate of one of the characters. In my screening after all of the credits there was to a be a segment about the production of the movie's score which I didn't stick around for. Likely will be picking up the DVD/BD of this when it is released this week. In a year where we get the mixed-reaction Batman v. Superman this is a good movie to have in order to provide us with a real, solid, Batman story.
This was like watching two different movies. The adaptation, once they got to it, was just fine, but the opening sequence was... boring.
Mark Hamill still has it, but Kevin Conroy is starting to sound his age, I'm afraid.
I did really like the end-tag with Barbara.
Mark Hamill still has it, but Kevin Conroy is starting to sound his age, I'm afraid.
I did really like the end-tag with Barbara.
I read an interview with Bruce Timm earlier today, and he admitted that the new stuff isn't really directly connected to the main book adaptation, but that they decided to just let it go that way.
I'm pretty sure the Mark Hamill thing you mentioned in the beginning was probably a Fathom event thing. When my mom and I went to one of their showings of Sherlock: The Abominable Bride they had a couple extra behind the scenes things, one before the movie and one after.
I'm pretty sure the Mark Hamill thing you mentioned in the beginning was probably a Fathom event thing. When my mom and I went to one of their showings of Sherlock: The Abominable Bride they had a couple extra behind the scenes things, one before the movie and one after.
I was really into TAS universe and always got the implication that Barbara was attracted to Bruce, but it never worked out since Bruce eventually pushed everyone away as he grew older.This mash-up from Batman Beyond and The New Batman Adventures (BTAS renamed in 1997) partially explains what went down.
Scan from Bruce's computer on Batman Beyond
Then you had Babs calling Bruce in the DTV Legend of Batwoman movie. Done by the same people who did BTAS/TNBA/BB/JL.
And then you have this addition from Batman Beyond 2.0. Which further explores the BrucexBab relationship, but with Dick's input.
http://view-comic.com/batman-beyond-2-0-028-2014/
So yeah, Bruce Timm has been pushing his BrucexBabs ship since the 90s. With TKJ however, he was able to push things to the next level.
As for TKJ. I was really disappointed. I didn't like how Batgirl was treated in the original comic, but I understand the point it serves in the story. The whole thing is really just to examine Batman and the Joker, everything that happens in it is just a build-up to the Joker's monologue. She and Jim Gordon are really just props to get Batman to confront the Joker.
Maybe it just works better as a comic, but the whole thing felt really flat. It's just the Joker delivering a monologue and Hamill is great at that, but nothing really happens in it. Padding it out with an episode of the Oddly Sexist Adventures of Batgirl was extremely odd. It didn't even connect to what happens afterwards. It's like two random episodes of Batman aired back to back instead of a cohesive story. They really could have done so much better. Maybe have it start with Batgirl fight crime. She has a close call and questions whether she's really using her abilities in the best way. Contrast it with Batman who Batgirl is increasingly beginning to question over whether he chooses to be Batman or is pathologically compelled to be Batman. At least make it connect thematically to the rest of the movie.
I guess I don't get the "sexist" angle with Barbara at the beginning. I mean, the big thing of it was that she initiated the sex; and Batman's trying to sideline her was -seemingly- due to his feelings for her and wanting to protect her.
I do agree that the two parts aren't blended together well and in order to do that you'd need to take the actual TKJ part and make some changes, but I think that's allowed in any adaptation. They change I would suggest is that while Barbara is unconscious in the hospital, Bruce kneels next to her bed and opens up to her saying something like:
"I'm sorry I put off talking to you after that night, I was letting my feelings for you cloud my judgment. Everyone who has ever gotten close to me has had to pay the price in some way or another and I couldn't bear the thought of that happening to you so I kept pushing you away, hoping it would keep you safe, but I wonder if doing so didn't just put you in more danger."
And then she wakes up it being left open to interpretation on whether or not she heard him.
More probably could have been done to tie the two segments together, but the opening act was pretty much necessary to establish Barbara as a character rather than just having her show up for two minutes in the beginning of the movie only to get shot and be unconscious the rest of the time; pretty much a "woman in the refrigerator" moment.
But we got to see her passion in the beginning as well as how she's able to kick as much ass and "go to that point" like Batman and what led to her retirement as Batgirl, but I don't see the sexism in it. It's not uncommon for workplace romances to lead into one sheltering the other by restricting their work actions if one is a subordinate to the other or for the romance to cause workplace conflicts; which is why workplace romances are often discouraged. But it's important to note how Barbara was the aggressor in the encounter and, slight, argument could be made she forced Batman into it. (Yes, I'm suggesting that.)
As I said, I really liked it. I might temper by grade a bit in hindsight after a day or two of cooling off from seeing it and reflection, but it was entertaining. I liked seeing Batgirl kick ass, I liked Conroy and Hamil again in the iconic voice roles and The Killing Joke is just one of the more iconic stories that needed this adaptation; though it could have been better. It was really nice to see something of an "origin story" to The Joker and to have him humanized a bit. And to see the suggestion that he was always on the brink of insanity since, as Batman points out, Jim Gordon remained sane after being pushed to the edge so for Joker to have gone nuts when faced with that edge he must have taken himself to that edge. Batman himself even managed to stay on that ledge.
In the TKJ part, it probably could have been fleshed out more itself, I had always gotten the feeling that the mob had killed The Joker's wife and unborn child as means of dotting all of their "I's" and it would have been nice to have seen that shown here, though maybe that's changing too much.
Again, I thought the movie was great and I enjoyed it and I think it's getting too harsh of criticism, particularly the first segment and the romantic liaison between Batman and Batgirl. They're both adults, Barbara in her early/mid 20s, Batman in his late 30's/early 40s. Bruce is a handsome, powerful, billionaire and Barbara is a hot, 20-something, woman. Seems like a romantic encounter would almost be unavoidable if they were working closely together for long enough.
I do agree that the two parts aren't blended together well and in order to do that you'd need to take the actual TKJ part and make some changes, but I think that's allowed in any adaptation. They change I would suggest is that while Barbara is unconscious in the hospital, Bruce kneels next to her bed and opens up to her saying something like:
"I'm sorry I put off talking to you after that night, I was letting my feelings for you cloud my judgment. Everyone who has ever gotten close to me has had to pay the price in some way or another and I couldn't bear the thought of that happening to you so I kept pushing you away, hoping it would keep you safe, but I wonder if doing so didn't just put you in more danger."
And then she wakes up it being left open to interpretation on whether or not she heard him.
More probably could have been done to tie the two segments together, but the opening act was pretty much necessary to establish Barbara as a character rather than just having her show up for two minutes in the beginning of the movie only to get shot and be unconscious the rest of the time; pretty much a "woman in the refrigerator" moment.
But we got to see her passion in the beginning as well as how she's able to kick as much ass and "go to that point" like Batman and what led to her retirement as Batgirl, but I don't see the sexism in it. It's not uncommon for workplace romances to lead into one sheltering the other by restricting their work actions if one is a subordinate to the other or for the romance to cause workplace conflicts; which is why workplace romances are often discouraged. But it's important to note how Barbara was the aggressor in the encounter and, slight, argument could be made she forced Batman into it. (Yes, I'm suggesting that.)
As I said, I really liked it. I might temper by grade a bit in hindsight after a day or two of cooling off from seeing it and reflection, but it was entertaining. I liked seeing Batgirl kick ass, I liked Conroy and Hamil again in the iconic voice roles and The Killing Joke is just one of the more iconic stories that needed this adaptation; though it could have been better. It was really nice to see something of an "origin story" to The Joker and to have him humanized a bit. And to see the suggestion that he was always on the brink of insanity since, as Batman points out, Jim Gordon remained sane after being pushed to the edge so for Joker to have gone nuts when faced with that edge he must have taken himself to that edge. Batman himself even managed to stay on that ledge.
In the TKJ part, it probably could have been fleshed out more itself, I had always gotten the feeling that the mob had killed The Joker's wife and unborn child as means of dotting all of their "I's" and it would have been nice to have seen that shown here, though maybe that's changing too much.
Again, I thought the movie was great and I enjoyed it and I think it's getting too harsh of criticism, particularly the first segment and the romantic liaison between Batman and Batgirl. They're both adults, Barbara in her early/mid 20s, Batman in his late 30's/early 40s. Bruce is a handsome, powerful, billionaire and Barbara is a hot, 20-something, woman. Seems like a romantic encounter would almost be unavoidable if they were working closely together for long enough.