I had the same reaction to the source material, so that sounds about right.
Batman: The Killing Joke animated movie from Bruce Timm
- Thread starter Turtletrekker
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Yeah. I've never read the book.
Flat A, actually, and I'd probably drop it to an A- on more reflection. In the end I liked the movie, flawed as it is. The stuff I liked in it, for me, overcomes the flaws in it.
@Admiral2 For the 9751st time, nobody but you is making this argument based of age or legality. I'm honestly not sure why you keep banging on about it. But hey, if strawmen are your thing then by all means, pound away.
Anyway, justifying characters' actions by simply saying "they made a choice" betrays a total lack of understanding as to how characterisation works to say nothing of a dogged obtuseness bordering on the determinable ignorant. With that logic you can justify any action by any character, regardless of context. In other words: it's a non-argument.
Anyway, justifying characters' actions by simply saying "they made a choice" betrays a total lack of understanding as to how characterisation works to say nothing of a dogged obtuseness bordering on the determinable ignorant. With that logic you can justify any action by any character, regardless of context. In other words: it's a non-argument.
Everything I heard about this made me think it was going to be terrible, but I am a die-hard Batman fan so I had no choice but to watch it. I also have a liking for the graphic novel, flaws and all, but that's a discussion for a different time. So I went into this with pretty low expectations.
But my God. My God. What was this? I mean, how did no one put a stop to the massive amount of bad decisions in this film? I mean, where do I even begin? How about with the fact that I'm taking a break from my sabbatical from here to warn people away from buying this piss of shit. I suffered so you guys didn't have to, my friends.
The misogyny in this film has already been covered, but I think it needs to be covered more. Also, the gay friend to Barbara was so bad that it somehow wrapped around to being hilarious. But let's stick with the misogyny for now. I understand the complaints about the handling of Barbara in the original story. Frankly, I put this more on DC than the graphic novel itself because the graphic novel wasn't supposed to be canon originally. That said, Moore himself has admitted to regretting the decision to shoot Batgirl. I never liked the idea of Joker being a rapist nor did I like the idea that he would sexual humiliate Gordon. From a characterization stand point, that just never made sense to me. That the film doubles down on this even after all the criticism of that plot from the graphic novel is staggering. They would've been better off just adapting it outright.
So the first 30 minutes of the film is interested in giving Batgirl agency. It does this by presenting us with a villain who is beyond boring, and who makes jokes about Batgirl being on her period. He fucks prostitutes that look like Batgirl. He makes comments about her as he's being arrested on television. This is like a 13 year old's view of a "complex" villain on an HBO show. Ramsay from Game of Thrones looks like the epitome of characterization in comparison. Batgirl's characterization, meanwhile, is that of an obsessive who can't get over Batman. Why choose this as the way to present her? Is there any reason? Because it sure as hell doesn't make for good viewing.
And now we come to the Batman-Batgirl sex scene. Ah, yes, this has to be up there with Obi-Wan getting it on with Princess Leia in terms of sexual coupling I never hope to see in a story. There's no reason for it, it doesn't give her agency, and I'm not fond of the mentor-mentee hookup plot to begin with, let alone with Batman.
Setting all of this aside, it's still awful because it screws up the structure. The Joker doesn't appear and isn't even mentioned until almost halfway through. The themes of the story, one bad day to make you go crazy, are also absent for the first third. This is terrible writing. And the theme of one bad day and accepting insanity in an insane world is a really neat one, but it is totally lost in this mess.
The animation is definitely below par, too. The animation in The Mask of the Phantasm is great, but animation has evolved since then. Yet you wouldn't know it to look at The Killing Joke.
Voice acting was great, though. Last ten minutes also showed a lot of promise but mostly made me feel for what could've been.
But my God. My God. What was this? I mean, how did no one put a stop to the massive amount of bad decisions in this film? I mean, where do I even begin? How about with the fact that I'm taking a break from my sabbatical from here to warn people away from buying this piss of shit. I suffered so you guys didn't have to, my friends.
The misogyny in this film has already been covered, but I think it needs to be covered more. Also, the gay friend to Barbara was so bad that it somehow wrapped around to being hilarious. But let's stick with the misogyny for now. I understand the complaints about the handling of Barbara in the original story. Frankly, I put this more on DC than the graphic novel itself because the graphic novel wasn't supposed to be canon originally. That said, Moore himself has admitted to regretting the decision to shoot Batgirl. I never liked the idea of Joker being a rapist nor did I like the idea that he would sexual humiliate Gordon. From a characterization stand point, that just never made sense to me. That the film doubles down on this even after all the criticism of that plot from the graphic novel is staggering. They would've been better off just adapting it outright.
So the first 30 minutes of the film is interested in giving Batgirl agency. It does this by presenting us with a villain who is beyond boring, and who makes jokes about Batgirl being on her period. He fucks prostitutes that look like Batgirl. He makes comments about her as he's being arrested on television. This is like a 13 year old's view of a "complex" villain on an HBO show. Ramsay from Game of Thrones looks like the epitome of characterization in comparison. Batgirl's characterization, meanwhile, is that of an obsessive who can't get over Batman. Why choose this as the way to present her? Is there any reason? Because it sure as hell doesn't make for good viewing.
And now we come to the Batman-Batgirl sex scene. Ah, yes, this has to be up there with Obi-Wan getting it on with Princess Leia in terms of sexual coupling I never hope to see in a story. There's no reason for it, it doesn't give her agency, and I'm not fond of the mentor-mentee hookup plot to begin with, let alone with Batman.
Setting all of this aside, it's still awful because it screws up the structure. The Joker doesn't appear and isn't even mentioned until almost halfway through. The themes of the story, one bad day to make you go crazy, are also absent for the first third. This is terrible writing. And the theme of one bad day and accepting insanity in an insane world is a really neat one, but it is totally lost in this mess.
The animation is definitely below par, too. The animation in The Mask of the Phantasm is great, but animation has evolved since then. Yet you wouldn't know it to look at The Killing Joke.
Voice acting was great, though. Last ten minutes also showed a lot of promise but mostly made me feel for what could've been.
I understand the character just fine, because I've read the comics and seen the movies and animated shows. The only way your concept of the character makes sense is if you base it entirely on Adam West's portrayal of him.
So Batman screws Batgirl. It certainly sounds like a new low for Bruce Timm and everyone else involved.
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It's a shame that this appears to be a total mess, all of the people involved have done some really good stuff, even in the DCU Animated movies line.
I was initially kind of surprised that Azarello handled Barbara so badly after he did a great job with Wonder Woman, but then I realized his WW run never really dealt with her as a woman, just as a child of Zeus and a superhero. I also remembered he was the one who did the whole thing with the Amazons having sex with, then killing dudes in order to have babies, and then giving up all the boys. So I guess this isn't really the first time he's made bad creative decisions when it comes to the women in his writing.
I was initially kind of surprised that Azarello handled Barbara so badly after he did a great job with Wonder Woman, but then I realized his WW run never really dealt with her as a woman, just as a child of Zeus and a superhero. I also remembered he was the one who did the whole thing with the Amazons having sex with, then killing dudes in order to have babies, and then giving up all the boys. So I guess this isn't really the first time he's made bad creative decisions when it comes to the women in his writing.
I'm really no surprised though. As has been said before he seemed to be on that pairing's bandwagon for a long time.
If you're going to do that story, at least do it well. Batgirl seems obsessed with him the entire time, just strips in front of him and then things get so awkward that she thinks about quitting. It's like a bad office romance that ends with HR having to step in and deal with it.
There's an indirect reference to the age difference when Jim mentions Batman & Joker's first encounter. Barb says she remembers him describing him to her and it scared the hell out of her as she was just a young child. Don't recall if an exact age is mentioned, but I'd say around five sounds right.
How that relates to Bruce's age depends on how old he was back then, though it's a fair bet it was early in his career. It varies depending on which version of his origin you go with, but I think most have him taking up the cowl in his late 20's or early 30's after a decade or so of walking the earth and being trained by various martial arts masters, escapologists, living undercover in the criminal underworld, that sort of thing.
So you're probably looking at him being in his mid-40's during TKJ. Which makes sense when you consider this version of Batman would have raised Grayson from young age, have him leave and "replaced" by Jason Todd for a time, who was murdered long enough ago for it to be not quite so fresh in the memory, if Batman's interactions with the Joker are any indication.
It's all rather academic though, since the age difference is not really the problem.
Made doubly messy since the guy she boned effectively was the entire HR department.
Finally watched it! That was bizarre. The first half was a completely original story that had absolutely nothing to do with the actual story. So weird. I can really see the complaints about how Barbara only existed an object for everyone in the movie; Paris, Batman, her father, the Joker. There's even some embarrassing cheesecake shots of her body (with no head) when she's jogging. I've already forgotten, did they even catch Paris? Didn't he get away?
Bats and Barbara having sex wasn't as horrific as the spoilery articles had led me to believe. They did it once in the heat of the moment and they both regretted it. Is that really so different from what they did with them in the B:TAS continuity?
The actual adaptation of the story was alright. I didn't mind the few additions like Bats having to fight an army of circus freaks. And I'm glad the ending retained the ambiguous suggestion that Bats snaps his neck.
Bats and Barbara having sex wasn't as horrific as the spoilery articles had led me to believe. They did it once in the heat of the moment and they both regretted it. Is that really so different from what they did with them in the B:TAS continuity?
The actual adaptation of the story was alright. I didn't mind the few additions like Bats having to fight an army of circus freaks. And I'm glad the ending retained the ambiguous suggestion that Bats snaps his neck.
Finally watched it, overall good but not very ... some elements felt a little too close to the comic and/or just didn't work as well in film. In particular Jim Gordon insisting Joker be brought in by the book felt too arbitrary.
The beginning expansion was fine in itself but kind of built up Batgirl at the expense of Batman, he was made to seem a little too much like a bad and unreasonable guy (claiming Paris was too dangerous but maybe also being motivated by personal sexual interest in Barbara, initially refusing to talk about if their partnership can continue) and then awkward that he's not more intense and personal about the Joker later on and her deciding to quit being Batgirl if she couldn't be his partner was at least somewhat off-putting.
The epilogue was nice in itself but a little too triumphant when most of the film, especially the ending, was really dark and grim (although I guess it implies that Batman probably didn't either kill the Joker or go insane).
A little shocking that the Joker was said to often employ prostitutes but not be violent toward them, it's a little awkward idea that he could refrain from being violent or sadistic to anyone but still possible.
The beginning expansion was fine in itself but kind of built up Batgirl at the expense of Batman, he was made to seem a little too much like a bad and unreasonable guy (claiming Paris was too dangerous but maybe also being motivated by personal sexual interest in Barbara, initially refusing to talk about if their partnership can continue) and then awkward that he's not more intense and personal about the Joker later on and her deciding to quit being Batgirl if she couldn't be his partner was at least somewhat off-putting.
The epilogue was nice in itself but a little too triumphant when most of the film, especially the ending, was really dark and grim (although I guess it implies that Batman probably didn't either kill the Joker or go insane).
A little shocking that the Joker was said to often employ prostitutes but not be violent toward them, it's a little awkward idea that he could refrain from being violent or sadistic to anyone but still possible.
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If the movie made it feel arbitrary, that's a critical failure, because it's essential to the theme of the whole story: The Joker tried to prove that anyone could be broken and turned evil by a single bad day, as a way of making excuses for his own evil ways; but Gordon clung to his principles despite everything the Joker had put him through, thereby disproving the Joker's thesis. It's the same thematic point as the ferry-bomb sequence in The Dark Knight -- the Joker insisting that everyone is potentially as bad as he is, and others standing by their principles and proving him wrong.
That was to make up a little for how she was treated in the comic. Seeing her at the end of the film in front of the computer shows her empowered--and--we do see her eventually walk--if you go by Batman Beyond.
I actually liked the ending.
Nice to have the Joker and Batman in a quiet, reflective moment.
I actually didn't see this as all that dark at all--but uplifting in its own way.
If you want dark--watch Foxcatcher. That movie was an awkward thing to watch
What? The Killing Joke isn't set in the DC Animated Universe, despite the reuse of the voice actors. We already know that the Joker has a different backstory in the DCAU -- he was a mob enforcer (as seen in Mask of the Phantasm), not a stand-up comic.