Batman: The Killing Joke animated movie from Bruce Timm
- Thread starter Turtletrekker
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Anyone thinks Alan Moore's classic story is influenced by Clockwork Orange (movie and book)? i mean there's not only the attack on Barbara but also Joker and his men being like Alex and his droogs who ring doorbells to do terrible things to people, the brainwashing to madness, the character study of a bad person and all that.
Yeah there's definetly a resemblance. The way he's so non-chalant through the whole ordeal. The difference between the two is I believe that in clockwork orange the rape was just done for fun while in TKJ it was all done to prove a point. Only seen A Clockwork Orange in bits and pieces as Kubrick was never my cup of tea so fans of that flick might want to chime in.
From what I've read, Alan Moore outright said that The Joker did not rape Barbara. I can't find the specific interview where he says it, but its mentioned a lot and I even saw comic writer Gail Simone repeat the same thing on twitter, so I'm assuming he actually confirmed that no rape happened, I just can't find the exact quote.
I re-read it just last week (took all of 20 mins) and no, there's no implication of rape. Not that being shot, stripped naked and photographed while bleeding out isn't a massively traumatic violation, but there's no implication of sexual interference. To be honest, I'd be very disappointed in Moore if there were. I don't think it's in the Joker's nature. He's not interested in asserting and showing he has power and control, he's interested in showing *nobody* really has any control. To him such an act wouldn't mean anything; it wouldn't be funny to him.
As for the Clockwork Orange comparison: honestly I have no idea. I've only seen the movie once, which for a Kubrick film is 67 fewer times required to absorb all the nuance of the meaning and I've never read the book.
Has the Joker ever seen to be sexually interested in anyone? (Aside from Batman in TDKR) I can't even think of an instance in the cartoon where he's actually interested in Harley Quinn's sexual advances. He's possessive and jealous of her leaving him, but does he actually desire her that way?
Just imagine if Joker broke into some middle age woman's house and attacked her with a giant dildo and when attacking Barbara to do the nude photos he did Singing in the Rain? and who thinks in the story Joker is like Alex?
And a good companion when reading Killing Joke would be listening to the Clockwork Orange soundtrack to match the similarities between them
And a good companion when reading Killing Joke would be listening to the Clockwork Orange soundtrack to match the similarities between them
If only she had been an undercover superhero there might have been more sympathy for her plight and a demand to have that scene changed.
I'd see that movie.
Not that I recall. That love affair seems to consistently be one-way and I've never been entirely sure why he tolerated her for so long, perhaps neither is he. IIRC in the comics he got bored of her fast and tried to murder her almost straight away. Indeed, from the footage in the 'Suicide Squad' trailer, I suspect that's what'll happen in the flashback scenes. Probably on their honeymoon (for lack of a better term) if I'm reading it right.
And yeah, I wouldn't count anything in Frank Miller's books because, well: Frank Miller.
I have to admit, I had kind of assumed he did rape her, but I guess it does make sense that he wouldn't since the whole thing was about her father and reaping her would have been about Barbara. That does improve my opinion on the whole thing a tiny bit.
And yet, many of his works are in fact punctuated by rape or sexual violence (TLoEG in almost every iteration, mostly directed at Mina, Watchmen, Marvelman, Neonomicon, Tom Strong) . What differs, from work to work, is whether they are making a point about said violence in media/storytelling, or whether they are callous and unnecessary.
A lot of his work is steeped in sexuality, regularly sounding off as a counterpoint to what is in mainstream comic media. Some of his work on Swamp Thing and has a romanticism and sensitivity to it. His work on Neonomicon,or even TLoEG not so much (Man rapes woman, man gets raped to death by woman's friend - ugh).
He has always tread a fine line and has even admitted that in some of his work he was "really pushing it" (His comment about Neonomicon specifically), but his work is awash with sexual violence, TKJ being as notable example as any.
People have interestingly pointed out that The Joker himself may be asexual, or lacking any noteworthy interest in the topic. If that is the case, his stripping and demeaning of Barbera in TKJ could have no sexual connotation for the character at all, simply an extension of his actions designed to drive Commissioner Gorden "Insane". Yet, the violence, as captured in the frames, seethes with sexual overtones. So whilst it may not overall be in character for the Joker to perform a sexual assault, it is presented by an author who has a clear fascination with the blurred lines of sexuality and sexual violence, and though not drawn an inference is there.
Hugo
I don't know, I think you have to be careful with inferences.
A rape in KJ would've been really out of form for the Joker and overkill to the point of distraction. I'm not against any particular storytelling devices in principle, but there are plenty of writers with fists of ham doing comics who clearly overplay the edginess. I tend to avoid darker comics, so there is a gaping hole in my knowledge there - with a few exceptions.
As long as it's consistent with itself & rated properly I don't care. Batman is both Adam West & Ben Affleck, but they don't mix those versions for a reason.