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Batman: The Killing Joke animated movie from Bruce Timm

I'd like to know in what Bizzaro world people think that "shags his students" is considered perfectly in-character for Batman.

Somehow I don't think there would be quite so many leaping to the defence if it was one of the male Robins instead of Barb.
Because it's not one of the Robins, goddammit. Batman is not fucking any underage kids he's actually responsible for. Barbara Gordon is not an underage kid he's actually responsible for.

Enough with this "student" nonsense! Batman is not an English teacher. He's not going to send Jim Gordon a fucking report card on her at the end of the semester. The streets of Gotham are not DeGrassi Junior fucking high. There is no Board of Superhero Education that will scrape its finger at him and keep him in a "rubber room" until his tenure runs out.

The soul purpose of Batman's instruction of Batgirl is to keep her from getting herself killed while she voluntarily puts on tights and goes out to beat up bad guys. Nothing about the fact that he's teaching her this precludes them from having a romantic/sexual relationship. Why? They are both adults responsible for their own actions.

Bruce was not "shagging a student." He had sex with a beautiful woman who wanted to have sex with him, something he has done countless times across all forms of media.
 
^ 1) Grayson is about the same age as Barbara, so not a child. 2) Barbara refers to herself as his student in the movie. That's pretty definitive.

@Trekker4747: Personally, I have no problem with the idea that Barbara would have an irrational attraction to Bruce nor that she might act on it in a moment of weakness and frustrated confusion. My problem is Bruce not slamming the breaks on hard when she made a move. It makes him look like a perv and a moron. He should be neither of these things, thus it's grossly out of character.

Here's a grown up concept some of you don't appear able to grasp: just because a pretty girl (even one of legal age) throws herself at a man, that does not mean that man has to go along with it, nor does it absolve him of all responsibility in the matter.

Barb did something *really* stupid, but it's within the bounds of her character so it's OK from a storytelling perspective. What Bruce did was not, therefore it wasn't.
 
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I love that some people are using "age of consent" as a defense for Barbara wanting to jump on Batman instead of thinking, "Oh, wait, maybe she isn't right in the head and Batman should have said no."
 
Spoken like someone whose understanding of relationships between adults -- both sexual and otherwise -- is defined by movies and television, not reality.

What, you don't think there's people out there who fall for someone simply because on trivial things like looks or their financial status? Younger people in particular are more likely to be driven by their lusts than their hearts which is why pretty much everyone doesn't end up with the first person they have a romantic relationship with. Why can that not be the case here, could Barbara just not have been horny for Bruce and gave into her passions in the heat of that moment and Bruce did as well? (The guy is something of a womanizer himself.)
 
What, you don't think there's people out there who fall for someone simply because on trivial things like looks or their financial status? Younger people in particular are more likely to be driven by their lusts than their hearts which is why pretty much everyone doesn't end up with the first person they have a romantic relationship with. Why can that not be the case here, could Barbara just not have been horny for Bruce and gave into her passions in the heat of that moment and Bruce did as well? (The guy is something of a womanizer himself.)

No one is saying it doesn't happen, just that it's a supremely shitty thing for a supposed hero like Batman to do.
 
(The guy is something of a womanizer himself.)

In pretty much every modern adaptation / interpretation, Bruce Wayne is a womanizer because he's trying to keep up his public image as a playboy. Railing a student doesn't exactly fall under that category.

Again, I get the need to fill in some backstory for Barbara to make The Killing Joke a full movie. But making that backstory be "I want Batman to rail me so hard" is absurd, idiotic and offensive. There are probably twenty ways that Timm and Co. could have given her some more agency in the story, and instead they decided that Barbara was randy for Batman and was doing everything she could to impress him. If you don't see the issue with that, then that's on your shoulders.
 
Barbara in her early/mid 20s, Batman in his late 30's/early 40s. Bruce is a handsome, powerful, billionaire and Barbara is a hot, 20-something, woman.

Who's Bruce to turn down a cute, nubile, college girl forcing herself on him?

You can't tell me that if, as a straight male, an attractive young woman of age forced herself on you; you'd be "Nah, go away. There's like 8 years between us which is kind of icky even though such age gaps exist in numerous relationships."
why do you keep saying things like this? it's like you're bragging for Batman.
 
It's just there, Bruce is a known womanizer so why would he turn down a woman, of legal age, throwing herself at him?
 
It's just there, Bruce is a known womanizer so why would he turn down a woman, of legal age, throwing herself at him?

Particularly as he has known tendency to do this with female supervillians (Catwoman and Talia al Ghul most frequently, think he's also got with Poison Ivy a couple of time although I'm unsure whether any of those were consentual). So the notion that Batman has any kind of self-control or good moral judgement about his romantic encounters is pretty much shot to pieces.
 
Particularly as he has known tendency to do this with female supervillians (Catwoman and Talia al Ghul most frequently, think he's also got with Poison Ivy a couple of time although I'm unsure whether any of those were consentual). So the notion that Batman has any kind of self-control or good moral judgement about his romantic encounters is pretty much shot to pieces.
Exactly! I think, in a lot of ways, things like romance and sexual passion are largely foreign territory for Bruce and he doesn't really know how to deal with them outside of the capacity of keeping his cover as a "playboy billionaire".
 
I never really saw Bruce as the type to sleep with somebody, especially a friend and student like Barbara just because she let him.
I always saw the whole womanizing playboy as just an act he put on, and not the kind of thing he was really into.
I know he has had several love interests over the years, but I was under the impression most of those were fairly deep relationships, and not just random hookups. I haven't seen the movie yet, but it sounds like this really falls more into the later category than the former.
Depending on the continuity Barbara is also the on/off girlfriend of his either foster or adpoted son, and the daughter of one of his closest allies. I think a lot of people could see this a betrayal of those two, especially if things things aren't definitely over between DIck and Barbara at the time, and I really don't see Batman doing that.
 
It's just there, Bruce is a known womanizer so why would he turn down a woman, of legal age, throwing herself at him?

I don't know, maybe there was a legitimate reason to turn down a troubled young woman? Bonkers of a concept, I know.

Edit: And you continue to double down on the "of legal age" point. Jesus Goddamn Christ, that's fucking creepy.
 
And you continue to double down on the "of legal age" point. Jesus Goddamn Christ, that's fucking creepy.

It's creepy to point out that she's legal? :wtf:

It's just to underline and make solid the point that she's a legal adult as some seem to think of Barbara as being in her teens which would make her illegal in which case it would be wrong for Bruce to engage in a physical relationship with her and to distinguish the difference between an adult woman throwing herself at Bruce and a teenager throwing herself at him.

And is Barbara that "troubled" of a young woman? She comes from a broken home but she's got a good relationship with her parents, is well educated and well employed so I don't see how she's troubled. In the movie she was more pissed at Batman side-lining her than she was mad about anything else. It's not like she was a bipolar person going out of her way to put herself in reckless situations and was clearly someone unstable. She was a thrill-seeking crime-fighter much like Batman himself she just has the advantage of not going into range-induced lunacy like Batman who's "more troubled" than Barbara by leaps and bounds.
 
I don't know, maybe there was a legitimate reason to turn down a troubled young woman? Bonkers of a concept, I know.

Edit: And you continue to double down on the "of legal age" point. Jesus Goddamn Christ, that's fucking creepy.
Turn down free sex? What master of stoic self control could even conceive of such a thing!?
 
It's creepy to point out that she's legal? :wtf:

It's just to underline and make solid the point that she's a legal adult as some seem to think of Barbara as being in her teens which would make her illegal in which case it would be wrong for Bruce to engage in a physical relationship with her and to distinguish the difference between an adult woman throwing herself at Bruce and a teenager throwing herself at him.

And is Barbara that "troubled" of a young woman? She comes from a broken home but she's got a good relationship with her parents, is well educated and well employed so I don't see how she's troubled. In the movie she was more pissed at Batman side-lining her than she was mad about anything else. It's not like she was a bipolar person going out of her way to put herself in reckless situations and was clearly someone unstable. She was a thrill-seeking crime-fighter much like Batman himself she just has the advantage of not going into range-induced lunacy like Batman who's "more troubled" than Barbara by leaps and bounds.

I'm not going to break your post down line-by-line because, honesly, I don't have the energy.

Turning Barbara Gordon into a horny thrill-seeker is flat-out wrong (especially in the context of Timm and Azzarello saying they wanted to give her more of a story), and having Batman refuse her advances would have gone a long way to redeeming the film.

But, yes, by all means, Batman boning a kid doesn't have any negative connotations. And you continue to double down on the "age of consent" / "legal age" hill, which tells me you're missing the point.
 
^ 1) Grayson is about the same age as Barbara, so not a child.

And Bruce isn't fucking him.
2) Barbara refers to herself as his student in the movie. That's pretty definitive.

Which still is not the same thing as an English teacher boinking one of his class.

Here's a grown up concept some of you don't appear able to grasp: just because a pretty girl (even one of legal age) throws herself at a man, that does not mean that man has to go along with it, nor does it absolve him of all responsibility in the matter.

Here's another grown-up concept. It's called choice. The man in that situation can choose to accept or refuse as long as both choices are legal. Choosing to refuse is not automatically the right choice. It's just the one you're stuck on.

Barb did something *really* stupid, but it's within the bounds of her character so it's OK from a storytelling perspective. What Bruce did was not, therefore it wasn't.

Barbara made a choice. So did Bruce. Just because you disagree with their choices doesn't make either of them stupid or "out of character."
 
While I don't like the idea of Batgirl and Batman being together, I think some of the arguments kinda go overboard here.

I love that some people are using "age of consent" as a defense for Barbara wanting to jump on Batman instead of thinking, "Oh, wait, maybe she isn't right in the head and Batman should have said no."

Is Batgirl supposed to be insane in this movie? Older predatory guys who go and seek out young inexperienced women in hopes of emotionally manipulating them are creepers, but that's not the situation here, it's only really creepy if we assume Batman's motivations are unwholesome. Aren't they supposed to be good friends and equals? If so, there's really no moral problem, the only arguable point is about characterization.
 
But, yes, by all means, Batman boning a kid doesn't have any negative connotations. And you continue to double down on the "age of consent" / "legal age" hill, which tells me you're missing the point.

You calling her a kid seems to suggest that you're missing the point, hence why I keep saying that.

She's NOT a kid. She's an ADULT, in her early or mid-twenties. Perfectly capable of making her own decisions and knowing they'll have consequences particularly with her considering she's usually portrayed as being above-average smart. The age difference between Bruce and Barbara going with how they're commonly depicted and how it's suggested in this movie while significant isn't greater than how a 25% of relationships in the US are made up according to statistics. She was the aggressor in the sexual encounter, she made the choice of kissing Bruce, disrobing, and proceeding with the sex. Their teacher/student relationship is an informal one so while it may be "questionable" for Bruce to go along with it it isn't inherently wrong. And the only reason why it's often discouraged in college campuses is because of the imbalance of power and the complications and lawsuits it could bring on the school. Not because of any moral or legal "wrongness" in it, just that it makes things more complicated. Same with workplace relationships often being discouraged, some places even making those engaging in workplace romances having to sign waivers to remove the workplace of any liability.

Now, we can agree on the writer having issues when it comes to his portrayal of Barbara and how the scene/segment of the movie was done but that's going a tad meta in terms of the narrative of the movie. In the narrative of the movie we now have to try and help it to make sense and determine if the lengths we have to go to in order to do that are too much. A suspension of disbelief process.

What we know is that we have here two adults who work closely together every day/night and have known each other for some years. Their daily encounters usually involves some sort of physical activity with physical contact, when Bruce trains Barbara. Both are sexually mature and are within an age difference that's socially acceptable under most circumstances. (Again, 25% of marriages in America have at least a 6-year age gap between the them with the man being the older on, this jumps to nearly 33% when we expand the age difference to at least 4-years.) They're under no official or formal bindings that forbid them from having a physical relationship.

Given that Bruce is her teacher is it wrong? Perhaps.
Should Bruce have stopped it because Barbara was clearly starting it due to her intense emotions? Probably, yes.
Should he not have done it out of respect to Gordon? Certainly.
After doing it should Bruce have called/talked to her the following day or had not avoided her calls? Certainly.

But, he didn't. Surprise, a man who dresses up as a bat and beats criminals to within an inch of their life every night doesn't make great decisions and gives in to his base emotions and desires.

I didn't find the encounter all that wrong, as Barbara says over the phone; "It's just sex, why does it have to be such a big deal?" She clearly didn't regret the night and doesn't think of sex as that big of a deal. Bruce was obviously struggling with his feelings on it.

Yeah, it was inserted in the movie poorly, handled poorly and it didn't tie into the the actual TKJ part like, at all, (hence why I think there should have been a bed-side heart opening from Bruce to go along with the other changes they made to that part of the movie; which there were quite a few that I see now that I re-read the book last night.)

But, there it is. In the end, flawed characters made a bad decision, people in the real world do it all of the time and usually under far less acceptable circumstances.
 
Says the guy who gave the movie an A+. Now you're just backtracking.
 
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