Batman: The Killing Joke animated movie from Bruce Timm

[ichab]

Legality isn't the issue, it's poor characterisation. Plain and simple.

Barbara's end of things makes sense. I get why there's tension, I get why she'd have a moment and make a move to jump his bones. The problem occurs when Bruce doesn't say "no". It's out of character and only happens because someone on the production crew *really* wants to see Batgirl f*ck Batman. That's very poor story telling. Doubly so since literally none of this has anything to do with the rest of the movie. It's entirely separate.

Saw it today and agree. Most of that beginning was well done and would have been a good start to a batgirl movie but it had no business being in TKJ. This is a joker story, so I don't care about what's happening with batgirl. If they wanted to pad length, how about showing what Joker did after falling in the chemical vat and going crazy? I always thought of him wanting to pay a visit to everyone who had wronged him before.

Overall I give it a C+. Not bad but could have been so much better without that batgirl anchor dragging it down.

 

[Trekker4747]

Setting up Batgirl is needed, though, so that her getting shot means more and is more impactful as opposed to her just being a "woman in refrigerator." In the context of the movie she needed to be more of a character than just someone who gets shot right out of the gate. The movie, however, could have done better in tying up the set-up of Barbara and her getting shot which sets the meat of the story into motion, still a "woman in a refrigerator" in many respects but at least it'd mean something more with her being an actual character and if the two stories were tied together with Bruce saying something to her in the hospital bout their tryst and his feelings for her. That's my own problem with the movie, it really didn't connect the two parts together. I liked the Batgirl segment but it really needed to be more tightly connected to the second part beyond establishing her retirement as Batgirl.

I'm not sure the movie entirely "earned" the R-Rating, it was more violent than is common and there was some stronger language in it, but they way it's done it was a soft-R. If they were going to R they really could have done a lot more in showing the violence, having more of a sex-scene between Babs and Bats beyond panning away when she took off her top, more shocking imagery with the pictures Joker took of her and linger on it more (they really seemed to speed by that segment of the "ride" where it's much more in your face in the book, granted it's hard to avoid it in book form but it really seemed that portion of the ride Gordon went through it quickly; you'd think Joker would have lingered Gordon there to further drive him mad) and maybe kick up the language. The movie was pretty damn tame as far as R-rated movies go these days.

 

[Vandervecken]

First I should say I never read the TKJ.

So I finished watching it. Meh. Hamill was marvelous, he always is. But the threat posed by the carnival freaks was lame and they were lame, and so was their animation, which was repetitive. Joker's threat to Batman at the end seemed lame to me too; it's ludicrous for him to deliberately put himself in a situation where he has to go physically toe to toe with Batman, as in the upside down room. Good grief compare this to part 3 of The Dark Knight! (that I read, many years ago) and its adapation!

I'm glad I watched it for Hamill's Joker, I always am. But overall, meh and meh.

Oh--the final joke. Heh I knew that when I was a kid, except it was a Polish joke way back then. Doesn't matter, it's a good one.

 

[Reverend]

While I certainly agree that giving Barbara more agency in the story is a good idea (on paper at least), I don't think they did a good job pulling it off. Leaving aside their gross mischaracterisation of Batman for a moment, her story has little to nothing to do with the rest of the movie.
It's like watching the last two episodes of a TV show's season without all of the necessary context of the rest of the show or the promise of her arc continuing in the next season. It all feels out of place and tacked on. Even the Oracle epilogue at the end feels at odds with the tone and message of the final scene with Batman. Indeed it doesn't even feel directly connected to the first half of the movie since we don't see how she mentally got from "I slept with my boss/mentor/yoga instructor and quit" to "I'm now a white-hat hacker!" It's only there because the filmmakers felt the need to say "hey, it's OK because remember she becomes Oracle now!"

 

[Trekker4747]

Oh, I agree the opening chapter is poorly connected to TKJ story and the Oracle part was pretty much a form of fan-service at the end and both could have been done better; but something was needed at the beginning to establish Babs's character.

But the threat posed by the carnival freaks was lame and they were lame, and so was their animation, which was repetitive.

The carnival freaks part I never much cared for it just seemed sort of bizarre and cliche'd.

 

[Admiral2]

Legality isn't the issue, it's poor characterisation. Plain and simple.

Barbara's end of things makes sense. I get why there's tension, I get why she'd have a moment and make a move to jump his bones. The problem occurs when Bruce doesn't say "no". It's out of character

No it's not! Bruce Wayne does not refuse the attentions of beautiful women. What he refuses are the emotional commitments. The Bruce Wayne that had sex with Barbara in this story was perfectly in character.

since literally none of this has anything to do with the rest of the movie. It's entirely separate.

This is literally the only problem with the whole story of them together.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Arguing how wrong it is for Bruce to have sex with Barbara because he's a mentor/surrogate father is a moral argument, which is problematic, because it assumes that Bruce is otherwise a strictly moral person.

No, it doesn't, but it does assume that Bruce operates in the moral context of the society which he inhabits, which opens his actions up to critique.

So yeah, let's stop saying that he made a mistake, because I'm pretty sure he doesn't see it as one.

Would love to see this argument in court. "I didn't break the law, your honor! You see, I don't view what I did as illegal."

A beautiful woman offered herself to him and he simply did what Bruce Wayne has probably done hundreds of times and accepted. You can stand there and argue he should have and could have refused, but what have you seen in any of the Batman lore made you think he would refuse? Both his personas have been objects of desire to beautiful women. He's bedded several. He's not a monk. I'm sure his only regret is getting that close to someone he might have to use as cannon fodder someday, which is likely why he was so hot to get her off the case they were working.

So, what, his actions can't be criticized because "that's his character"? And if he liked mass murdering children for kicks, would the same argument hold? Just checking.

But let's also drop this "surrogate father" thing, because surrogate father is not the same as "Father." Bruce Wayne is not Barbara Gordon's parent, godparent or legal guardian and no amount of moralizing from us will change those facts. Is it wrong to have sex with a friend's daughter? That's up to the friend to judge, and Gordon can't judge an action nobody involved will tell him about.

As for the mentor thing...please. Isn't that always a gateway? You act like Bruce is the first teacher who ever had a romance with a student. Isn't that the whole point of the musical My Fair Lady? Again, the term doesn't make Bruce Barbara's parent. They are both consenting adults with no familial ties. There is nothing wrong with them hooking up past the romance has no business in this particular story.

If you think mentoring exists primarily as a gateway for elder authority figures to sexually prey upon their students, it sounds to me like you should be kept as far away from any such position as possible. Holy shit.

 

[Trekker4747]

Would love to see this argument in court. "I didn't break the law, your honor! You see, I don't view what I did as illegal."

The Hillary Clinton E-Mail defense?

 

[Robert Maxwell]

The Hillary Clinton E-Mail defense?

That's funny, could've sworn it was the Director of the FBI who ultimately decided it wasn't illegal.

 

[Timby]

but something was needed at the beginning to establish Babs's character.

Turning her into a horny sex kitten, however, does nothing for her as a character.

 

[Admiral2]

No, it doesn't, but it does assume that Bruce operates in the moral context of the society which he inhabits, which opens his actions up to critique.

But the point is he rejects that moral context with practically every action he takes. Criticize him all you like, but don't waste time thinking the criticism means anything to him.

Would love to see this argument in court. "I didn't break the law, your honor! You see, I don't view what I did as illegal."

A better argument would be "I didn't break the law because I didn't break the law," which is the case with him heaving sex with Barbara. She's of legal age and she initiated the encounter.

So, what, his actions can't be criticized because "that's his character"?

Criticize him all you like, but keep in mind that it is his character. What bothers me is this notion that having sex with Barbara is somehow something that Bruce Wayne would never do. What Bruce Wayne have people been following? I've been following the one who fathered a son with the daughter of his most dangerous enemy.

If you think mentoring exists primarily as a gateway for elder authority figures to sexually prey upon their students, it sounds to me like you should be kept as far away from any such position as possible. Holy shit.

I didn't say that. (Way to twist words. I bet you've been practicing.) It does not exist primarily to allow elders to prey on the young. However, it is a fact that students sometimes develop feelings for teachers and teachers develop feelings for students. Sometimes the feelings are mutual. That's just life, and in the cases where both teacher and student are considered adults in the eyes of the law, then you can level all the moral criticism on them you damn well please, but from a practical standpoint it's meaningless. When two consenting, legal adults engage in sex, neither is at any kind of fault.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

But the point is he rejects that moral context with practically every action he takes. Criticize him all you like, but don't waste time thinking the criticism means anything to him.

Nothing means anything to Batman, as he is a fictional character.

A better argument would be "I didn't break the law because I didn't break the law," which is the case with him heaving sex with Barbara. She's of legal age and she initiated the encounter.

No one said it was illegal, just that it's creepy. What I presented was an analogy.

Criticize him all you like, but keep in mind that it is his character. What bothers me is this notion that having sex with Barbara is somehow something that Bruce Wayne would never do. What Bruce Wayne have people been following? I've been following the one who fathered a son with the daughter of his most dangerous enemy.

"It's his character" can mean literally anything because, you know, he's fictional and his character consists of whatever the writer wants it to. It's not a defense.

I didn't say that. (Way to twist words. I bet you've been practicing.) It does not exist primarily to allow elders to prey on the young. However, it is a fact that students sometimes develop feelings for teachers and teachers develop feelings for students. Sometimes the feelings are mutual. That's just life, and in the cases where both teacher and student are considered adults in the eyes of the law, then you can level all the moral criticism on them you damn well please, but from a practical standpoint it's meaningless. When two consenting, legal adults engage in sex, neither is at any kind of fault.

There is a difference between developing feelings and acting on them. Adults in positions of power over other adults are expected to use discretion and professional judgment.

I realize superheroes aren't known for their ethical integrity, though.

 

[Timby]

It would have been easy to give Barbara some agency in order to pad out the story: Show her as Batman's protégé, being effective and kicking ass. Make it so that Batman reluctantly took her on because he's still grieving over Jason Todd, but he went along with it, and she proves to be a better sidekick than Dick Grayson or Jason, just busting heads left and right. Boom, there you go, a perfectly good reason for Batman to freak the fuck out when the Joker shoots her. No need to turn her into a sex kitten with daddy issues.

 

[Trekker4747]

Turning her into a horny sex kitten, however, does nothing for her as a character.

"Horny sex kitten?" That seems harsh, or is this simply because she's a young woman with a sex-drive?

 

[Timby]

"Horny sex kitten?" That seems harsh, or is this simply because she's a young woman with a sex-drive?

There is nothing wrong, whatsoever, with depicting a woman as having a sex drive. That's part of a person's basic humanity. What is wrong, however, is depicting a character whose base motivation is being infatuated with Batman and wanting to bone him, and using that to set up and frame an already problematic story that was driven by DC's editor telling Alan Moore, "Cripple the bitch."

The Killing Joke was already a rough story to start with. Giving it to Timm, who's always been kind of pervy with his depictions of female characters, was the wrong move.

 

[Admiral2]

Nothing means anything to Batman, as he is a fictional character.

Well...yeah.

No one said it was illegal, just that it's creepy.

I'm not seeing the creepiness. It's not like Bats is stalking a Girl Scout camp.

What I presented was an analogy.

A flawed one.

"It's his character" can mean literally anything because, you know, he's fictional and his character consists of whatever the writer wants it to. It's not a defense.

It's not meant to be. It's simply meant to rebut the notion that having sex with Barbara is something Bruce wouldn't do. Bruce doesn't need a defense because he did nothing wrong.

There is a difference between developing feelings and acting on them. Adults in positions of power over other adults are expected to use discretion and professional judgment.

True, but I'm not naïve enough to think every adult in those positions lives up to those expectations. I'm too old and I've seen too much.

I realize superheroes aren't known for their ethical integrity, though.

Actually some are. Just not the one in TKJ.

 

[Reverend]

I'd like to know in what Bizzaro world people think that "shags his students" is considered perfectly in-character for Batman.

Somehow I don't think there would be quite so many leaping to the defence if it was one of the male Robins instead of Barb.

 

[Timby]

I'd like to know in what Bizzaro world people think that "shags his students" is considered perfectly in-character for Batman.

People who think that a billionaire living out a revenge fantasy is perfectly healthy and should be idealized.

 

[Trekker4747]

There is nothing wrong, whatsoever, with depicting a woman as having a sex drive. That's part of a person's basic humanity. What is wrong, however, is depicting a character whose base motivation is being infatuated with Batman and wanting to bone him, and using that to set up and frame an already problematic story that was driven by DC's editor telling Alan Moore, "Cripple the bitch."

The Killing Joke was already a rough story to start with. Giving it to Timm, who's always been kind of pervy with his depictions of female characters, was the wrong move.

The motivations for crippling Barbara were, indeed, pretty shitty but in the interim DC made-up nicely for it between Oracle and, at least as far as the New 52, making her Batgirl again.

And, still don't quite get your problem with Barbara wanting to nail Batman; she had other reasons for being out there. wanting to fight crime, and she also had it for her boss. Again, he's a handsome billionaire playboy, seems pretty easy to believe she'd have the hots for him. She's a young woman with a sex drive and she gave into the heat of the moment in her confrontation with Batman. From the Batman: TAS clips above it seems like she was much more of a lust-driven maniac there. Here she was angry with him, had the hots for him, and just fell into the moment.

 

[Timby]

Again, he's a handsome billionaire playboy, seems pretty easy to believe she'd have the hots for him. She's a young woman with a sex drive and she gave into the heat of the moment in her confrontation with Batman.

Spoken like someone whose understanding of relationships between adults -- both sexual and otherwise -- is defined by movies and television, not reality.