Based on that the last episode revealed that the events in Enterprise only happened on the holodeck

[1001001]

I'm so happy for you.

But for me... my reaction colored, perhaps, by the travesty of this waste-of-an-hour with TNG characters hogging all the airtime of the, hello, ENT finale, as Riker romped through his little fantasy world and played dress-up and magically had our people suddenly having counselor sessions with-- Chef?-- Chef?? excuse me???-- while acting completely out of character whining about seat assignments which were clearly a more important issue than the dead guy they were memorializing, who, let's face it, committed suicide because no Trip Tucker of mine would be such a friggin moron about some dopey random bumpy-foreheaded aliens of the week, after he was basically MacGyver the week before-- sorry, six years before, so I guess all his brain cells died in the interim, but maybe that was because apparently nobody on this ship ever earned a promotion even after saving the universe from the Sphere-Builders and there was a Romulan War too if I recall correctly, plus who knows the fallout from allegedly breaking up with T'Pol about five minutes after mourning together over baby Elizabeth and practically vowing to try to have a baby, together this time, which made the alleged breakup make absobleepinglutely zero sense considering the 2-season buildup and being bonded and stuff and don't get me started about that, but now that I mention it, they belonged together no matter what nonsense they were blabbering about in that shuttlecraft with T'Pol asking if Trip missed her which she would never ask anyway because she's a Vulcan but whoever slapped together this fake holodeck fantasy apparently didn't do his homework about well anybody concerned, so don't get me started about that, so to see dress-up Riker TOUCH MY T'POL was just .

So then, you're saying you didn't like the finale?

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

So then, you're saying you didn't like the finale?

 

[Damian]

I'm so happy for you.

But for me... my reaction colored, perhaps, by the travesty of this waste-of-an-hour with TNG characters hogging all the airtime of the, hello, ENT finale, as Riker romped through his little fantasy world and played dress-up and magically had our people suddenly having counselor sessions with-- Chef?-- Chef?? excuse me???-- while acting completely out of character whining about seat assignments which were clearly a more important issue than the dead guy they were memorializing, who, let's face it, committed suicide because no Trip Tucker of mine would be such a friggin moron about some dopey random bumpy-foreheaded aliens of the week, after he was basically MacGyver the week before-- sorry, six years before, so I guess all his brain cells died in the interim, but maybe that was because apparently nobody on this ship ever earned a promotion even after saving the universe from the Sphere-Builders and there was a Romulan War too if I recall correctly, plus who knows the fallout from allegedly breaking up with T'Pol about five minutes after mourning together over baby Elizabeth and practically vowing to try to have a baby, together this time, which made the alleged breakup make absobleepinglutely zero sense considering the 2-season buildup and being bonded and stuff and don't get me started about that, but now that I mention it, they belonged together no matter what nonsense they were blabbering about in that shuttlecraft with T'Pol asking if Trip missed her which she would never ask anyway because she's a Vulcan but whoever slapped together this fake holodeck fantasy apparently didn't do his homework about well anybody concerned, so don't get me started about that, so to see dress-up Riker TOUCH MY T'POL was just .

So, if I'm reading this correctly TATV was your favorite episode of Star Trek of all time

 

[Damian]

But on a serious note---the only reason I can even watch this episode (and only when doing a full Enterprise series rewatch) is the novel "The Good That Med Do" that sort of retconned the events of TATV. Not from the standpoint that Riker actually did the holodeck program--just that this was an altered history and not how things really went down. So no I'll watch it just keeping that novel in mind and looking for things referenced in the novel. Otherwise it would probably be the only Star Trek show I'd be unable to watch at all. "Threshold" is pretty bad---but I can at least still watch it from time to time. TATV is almost unwatchable.

A sad way for the Berman era to close because I generally liked Berman era Star Trek. It would have been nice for his era to go out on a high note, like say, maybe the Terra Prime episodes (while not the best Star Trek he was ever involved with, at least it ended on a high note with hope for the future)

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

So, if I'm reading this correctly TATV was your favorite episode of Star Trek of all time

 

[AresB]

ENT is in good company, then.

The preface of the ST: TMP novelization, written by Gene Roddenberry himself and presented from the perspective of Kirk, gives the impression that TOS was a dramatization of events too and sensationalized the actual events. Kirk laments that he has been built up to be a “Modern Ulysses”, and that the adventures of the crew of the Enterprise during their 5-year mission where built up to be larger than life. He also regrets the loss of crew members and says that that many of them would still be alive if he had acted more quickly or more wisely. He says he was never as foolishly brave as depicted.

 

[Orphalesion]

Well, hate to be obvious, but none of Star Trek ever really happened. It's a collection of TV shows and movies set in a shared universe that is not internally consistent, because no fictional universe is (not even Middle Earth, not even within the confines of the LoTR)
So you are free to decide what "really happened", if you so wish.

But I don't think that TATV implies that the whole of ENT is just Riker's holodec adventure. To me that would necessitate that Riker played out the whole show. and I don't really see him doing that.

 

[Winterwind]

ENT is in good company, then.

The preface of the ST: TMP novelization, written by Gene Roddenberry himself and presented from the perspective of Kirk, gives the impression that TOS was a dramatization of events too and sensationalized the actual events. Kirk laments that he has been built up to be a “Modern Ulysses”, and that the adventures of the crew of the Enterprise during their 5-year mission where built up to be larger than life. He also regrets the loss of crew members and says that that many of them would still be alive if he had acted more quickly or more wisely. He says he was never as foolishly brave as depicted.

I've never had a high opinion of Roddenberry's writing although it's better than that insulting dreck B&B ended ENT with.

 

[at Quark's]

I take the events of the ENT series to have happened the way we see them on screen, with the exception of TATV.

Riker runs a "historic holo-programme". That's a bit of a vague term, since in theory it could mean anything between "an exacting reconstruction of history that is as accurate as we can make it" and "a fantasy with a bit of historical theme thrown in for flavour".

However my feeling is (though I cannot come up with hard evidence) that it leans more to the first than the second, seeing as Riker is in quite a serious predicament when he consults the program,

We do know it's not 100% based on complete recordings, as Riker somewhere says " Computer, add an appropriate crew complement, objective mode."

But all in all, I'd think what we see on TATV is still fairly close to what "really happened" - like it or not.

 

[Roundabout]

But on a serious note---the only reason I can even watch this episode (and only when doing a full Enterprise series rewatch) is the novel "The Good That Med Do" that sort of retconned the events of TATV. Not from the standpoint that Riker actually did the holodeck program--just that this was an altered history and not how things really went down. So no I'll watch it just keeping that novel in mind and looking for things referenced in the novel. Otherwise it would probably be the only Star Trek show I'd be unable to watch at all. "Threshold" is pretty bad---but I can at least still watch it from time to time. TATV is almost unwatchable.

A sad way for the Berman era to close because I generally liked Berman era Star Trek. It would have been nice for his era to go out on a high note, like say, maybe the Terra Prime episodes (while not the best Star Trek he was ever involved with, at least it ended on a high note with hope for the future)

TATV wasn't a terrible episode, but it was terrible as a series finale.

The idea of the story being a holograph program was an interesting concept. I have to admit that the chef Riker scenes were somewhat amusing. It might have worked as a mid season episode. If the story was done more as an homage to TNG like how "In a Mirror, Darkly" was done somewhat as a tribute to TOS, the story could have been good.

The one good thing about TATV was Archer's speech and all the scenes in the auditorium (minus Riker and Troi) that led up to it, like T'Pol and Archer hugging. Those scenes, minus Riker and Troi, were an appropriate way to conclude the series.

Ideally, I guess it would have great if the writers had dumped the episode except for those scenes and given us a more fitting episode to go along with Archer's speech scene. But it is what it is, we are stuck with it. I accept that what was shown in the holodeck was basically what "really" happened, modified to accommodate Riker's presence in the story.

I probably would not have been satisfied if "Terra Prime" had been the series finale. Especially that last scene with T'Pol and Trip all weepy. That would have been a depressing way for the series to end.

 

[at Quark's]

Of course, the real question is why the holodeck characters all look so very much like their real counterparts.

In Voyager's Flashback, Janeway, when sauntering with Tuvok through his memory during a mind meld, remarks that Sulu doesn't look like anything like his portrait at Starfleet Headquarters, to which Tuvok replies : ' In the twenty third century, holographic imaging resolution was less accurate.' .

So either Tuvok's memory is a good deal less accurate than he'd like to admit, or he's speaking the truth. If he's speaking the truth, how come they apparently have excellent holographic portraits from a 22nd century crew (but not of 23rd century personnel) ?

(Of course, I'm not too serious with this question but it is an interesting little mystery)

 

[F. King Daniel]

Of course, the real question is why the holodeck characters all look so very much like their real counterparts.

In Voyager's Flashback, Janeway, when sauntering with Tuvok through his memory during a mind meld, remarks that Sulu doesn't look like anything like his portrait at Starfleet Headquarters, to which Tuvok replies : ' In the twenty third century, holographic imaging resolution was less accurate.' .

So either Tuvok's memory is a good deal less accurate than he'd like to admit, or he's speaking the truth. If he's speaking the truth, how come they apparently have excellent holographic portraits from a 22nd century crew (but not of 23rd century personnel) ?

(Of course, I'm not too serious with this question but it is an interesting little mystery)

I thought that was a handwave to explain why Sulu, Rand and the rest of the Excelsior crew were 10 years older.

 

[at Quark's]

I thought that was a handwave to explain why Sulu, Rand and the rest of the Excelsior crew were 10 years older.

Probably, yes. Though in retrospect he perhaps better could have said something like. "Unfortunately, that might be one of the symptoms of my progressing illness, Captain. We must hurry to retrieve that memory."

 

[Dukhat]

Of course, the real question is why the holodeck characters all look so very much like their real counterparts.

They may have looked the same, but they sure didn't act the same.

 

[Mudd]

Yeah, most of the events may have happened in a similar way and characters from Enterprise may really have existed. But we can't be sure if things really happened like the show portrayed them...

Sorry, this was all tidily summed up in Alan Moore's coda to Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow over three decades ago. No further discussion is necessary.

 

[Tuskin38]

The Enterprise Romulan War novels take the fact that those events were shown in a holoprogram to ignore them, and that Trip is still alive. His death was faked by Section 31, and the holoprogram is the official record of events. That way the novel isn't technically contradicting show canon.

That's part of my head canon.

 

[RedShirt-1701D]

The Enterprise Romulan War novels take the fact that those events were shown in a holoprogram to ignore them, and that Trip is still alive. His death was faked by Section 31, and the holoprogram is the official record of events. That way the novel isn't technically contradicting show canon.

The problem is.. and I'm not sure how this slipped past the book's authors... Trip's "death" in TATV occurred after the Earth-Romulan War was over. In the first two minutes of the episode, Travis says to Hoshi, "after ten years on this ship, I'll bet it'll take a while getting used to the humidity again" (which makes the year 2161) and then T'Pol and Archer discuss "decommissioning protocols" and the "signing of the charter". While there is no reference directly to the Earth-Romulan War, it is obvious the conflict is over and this is the signing of the Federation charter.

Which means that there was no need for the authors of the novels to concoct the whole story about Trip faking his death and having him be a spy, etc. They were ret-conning something that didn't need to be retconned.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The problem is.. and I'm not sure how this slipped past the book's authors... Trip's "death" in TATV occurred after the Earth-Romulan War was over. In the first two minutes of the episode, Travis says to Hoshi, "after ten years on this ship, I'll bet it'll take a while getting used to the humidity again" (which makes the year 2161) and then T'Pol and Archer discuss "decommissioning protocols" and the "signing of the charter". While there is no reference directly to the Earth-Romulan War, it is obvious the conflict is over and this is the signing of the Federation charter.

Which means that there was no need for the authors of the novels to concoct the whole story about Trip faking his death and having him be a spy, etc. They were ret-conning something that didn't need to be retconned.

It was a deliberate retcon by the book to move the events of "These Are the Voyages" to just a few months after "Terra Prime", rather than have 6 years pass and have the same crew in the same positions with the same ranks for a total of ten years.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

A helpful quote from another TATV thread:

It's TATV. It's not supposed to make sense.

Probably should be posted in every TATV thread till the end of time.

 

[RedShirt-1701D]

It was a deliberate retcon by the book to move the events of "These Are the Voyages" to just a few months after "Terra Prime", rather than have 6 years pass and have the same crew in the same positions with the same ranks for a total of ten years.

Hadn't heard that, but it's kind of a ridiculous idea. I mean.. in the end, the ENT characters all still end up with the same ranks anyway if we're supposed to accept that TATV was historically accurate. So what is the point of concocting the whole plot about Trip's faked death if, in the end, Trip ends up back on the Enterprise, as himself, with the same rank? Also... why is it impossible to believe that the crew would all hold the same ranks after a decade? Look at Harry Kim. And most of the TOS cast held the same ranks for longer than a decade. There's also the whole issue with Shran. According to TATV, Shran "died" three years earlier (which would make it about 2157 or 2158) and then he goes off the grid and starts palling around with criminals and gets himself in a jam. I can't remember now, but did the books line this piece up right?
Don't get me wrong.. I like those novels for the most part but they did in fact, screw up. Badly. They retconned something using the exact details and context of the TATV events, only their "fix" happens about four and a half years too early. For no reason. They never needed to retcon the events of TATV for the Romulan War book series. They could have done everything the same (including disguising Trip as a spy) with no mention of Trip's "death" because it wouldn't happen for until after the war was over. And they did it all to address the characters' ranks? LOL... their ranks stayed the same anyway in the book series anyway IIRC. And even if I'm wrong on that.. what a dumb rationale to mess up all of the continuity.
I'm not buying it. I think the authors made a mistake about when they thought the TATV episode took place, their editor never caught it, and it went to print before any of them realized it and then, after the fact, they came up with the idea that they "did it on purpose" to justify their mistake.