Based on that the last episode revealed that the events in Enterprise only happened on the holodeck

[F. King Daniel]

adn't heard that, but it's kind of a ridiculous idea. I mean.. in the end, the ENT characters all still end up with the same ranks anyway if we're supposed to accept that TATV was historically accurate. So what is the point of concocting the whole plot about Trip's faked death if, in the end, Trip ends up back on the Enterprise, as himself, with the same rank?

Except in the books, he doesn't ever rejoin the Enterprise crew. And they all split immediately following the Romulan War (and Mayweather leaves earlier in protest of something Archer does, IIRC)

I wasn't too fond of the post-ENT Roulan War novels. But I recall Shran is alive in the Rise of the Federation series (which was a vast improvement, at least in it's first few books), which is set in the 2260's.

 

[Roboturner913]

That's not how it works.

Current American history as taught to schoolkids is full of rank exaggerations and outright inaccuracies. I see no reason why history in the future is any less infallible.

 

[RedShirt-1701D]

I'd have to go back and read again, but I thought the crew "splits up" at the beginning of the Rise of the Federation series, not at the end of the Romulan War series..?

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'd have to go back and read again, but I thought the crew "splits up" at the beginning of the Rise of the Federation series, not at the end of the Romulan War series..?

It's been a looooong time since I read them too, but I know for sure Mayweather leaves during the Romulan War.
I mean't they split up proper in the Rise of the Federation series, which itself is set right after the Romulan War.

 

[RedShirt-1701D]

Mayweather is back on board Enterprise, though in To Brave the Storm, which is the last Romulan War novel. He is with Archer during the final battle, as is the rest of the crew. I think Trip is the only one not with them, but he's on the Romulan flagship during the battle. I can't remember if he gets away or not.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Hadn't heard that, but it's kind of a ridiculous idea. I mean.. in the end, the ENT characters all still end up with the same ranks anyway if we're supposed to accept that TATV was historically accurate. So what is the point of concocting the whole plot about Trip's faked death if, in the end, Trip ends up back on the Enterprise, as himself, with the same rank? Also... why is it impossible to believe that the crew would all hold the same ranks after a decade? Look at Harry Kim. And most of the TOS cast held the same ranks for longer than a decade. There's also the whole issue with Shran. According to TATV, Shran "died" three years earlier (which would make it about 2157 or 2158) and then he goes off the grid and starts palling around with criminals and gets himself in a jam. I can't remember now, but did the books line this piece up right?
Don't get me wrong.. I like those novels for the most part but they did in fact, screw up. Badly. They retconned something using the exact details and context of the TATV events, only their "fix" happens about four and a half years too early. For no reason. They never needed to retcon the events of TATV for the Romulan War book series. They could have done everything the same (including disguising Trip as a spy) with no mention of Trip's "death" because it wouldn't happen for until after the war was over. And they did it all to address the characters' ranks? LOL... their ranks stayed the same anyway in the book series anyway IIRC. And even if I'm wrong on that.. what a dumb rationale to mess up all of the continuity.
I'm not buying it. I think the authors made a mistake about when they thought the TATV episode took place, their editor never caught it, and it went to print before any of them realized it and then, after the fact, they came up with the idea that they "did it on purpose" to justify their mistake.

In regards to Trip’s death, who says it’s Trip?

Archer & co. did grow Sim after all while they were looking for the Xindi. Who is to say they didn’t grow him again and again over the course of the Earth-Romulan War and called him Trip? Would a historian looking back on it really question if Trip is really Trip, unless they were a time traveller and embedded themselves with the crew like Daniels? Same thing if someone was creating a historic holoprogram based on the records provided to them by Starfleet. I don’t think either the NX-01 crew or Starfleet ever restricted use of cloning like that, at least at that particular time. We’re just aware of the hesitancy regarding genetic engineering, due to the Eugenics War and the NX-01’s encounter with the Augments, as well as their dealings with the Suliban and the Klingon Augment virus. Even though their Denobulan allies have used genetic engineering to positive effect, according to Phlox.

TBF, in regard to ranks, perhaps Mayweather and Sato and maybe Reed as well were promoted after the events of "Terra Prime." Not just for helping to defeat the xenophobic organization, but also due to the Coalition of Planets deal meaning there would be an influx of new crewmembers, so they would be promoted to show senior rank And got demoted before the events of TATV for varying reasons. There has never been any denial that may have happened, to my knowledge.

 

[Dukhat]

Or we could just acknowledge that TATV is the heaping pile of crap that it is, and take it at face value like it was intended, even though it makes little sense.

Although I know it’s fun to come up with alternative explanations for what we saw (the holoprogram was inaccurate, Trip was actually on some secret mission, etc.), the bottom line is that CBS doesn’t really care about it and has no intention of retconning it. So we’re stuck with it.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Did the events in this show really happen (and in the same way as we have seen them) or was it just a holodeck fantasy?

Holodeck fantasy for me. It's hard to imagine the Holodeck is not setting the scenario of events to cater to the user's, Riker, sensibilities, and also the episode never felt organic because the story's focal point is on him and not the main characters. Also, I can't get pass how much older Riker and Troi looked in that episode; they didn't look anything like what they appeared on TNG. It's more like a holodeck fantasy on top of a holodeck fantasy; Riker wanting to relive his days on 1701-D and making an additional request to be a Chef in the ENT universe.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Or we could just acknowledge that TATV is the heaping pile of crap that it is, and take it at face value like it was intended, even though it makes little sense.

Although I know it’s fun to come up with alternative explanations for what we saw (the holoprogram was inaccurate, Trip was actually on some secret mission, etc.), the bottom line is that CBS doesn’t really care about it and has no intention of retconning it. So we’re stuck with it.

Yes, TATV was a pile of crap. Yes, it is fun to think of alternative explanations. But its also an attempt to help give it some purpose and sense. It is actually helpful to consider that the NX-01 was in the process of being decommissioned shortly after the Battle of Charon. But everything else is speculation on how things could have gone, instead of how they actually went, especially with books like The Good That Men Do trying to explain those events. The only things that are certain post “Terra Prime” are the Attack on Starbase One, Shran’s “death”, Archer visiting Qo’nos again one final time (according to DSC), the Earth-Romulan War resulting in the defeat of the Romulan Star Empire and sending them into isolation for a century, the formation of the UFP, and the events of TATV.

I don’t feel like its any different than that line in “Doctor Bashir, I Presume” in DS9 referring to a Eugenics War in the 22nd century. My own headcanon treats it as partially referring to a Eugenics Cold War that seems apparent during ENT with the Suliban Cabal & Augments & Klingons, and the subsequent responses by Starfleet, Tandarans, and Tholians, regardless of the ties to the Temporal Cold War. While it hasn't been officially confirmed to be the case, it helps make that continuity error make sense, although it plays fast and loose with what is considered a war within Star Trek, mainly due to the Xindi crisis being referred to as a war in ST: Beyond.

Likewise, one can look at the criminals that board the NX-01 in TATV as a sign of the piracy that was prevalent and briefly covered with “Fortunate Son,” “Horizon,” “Anomaly,” the Ferengi in S1, the Orions in S4, and even Archer’s actions in “Damage”. Or the mentions of Warp 7 ships in TATV to be referring to the Daedalus-class line of ships.

I just think it helps gives meaning and sense to certain events during ENT, and helps make sense of ENT’s place within the continuity of the Star Trek timeline. I agree that CBS just does not care about ENT and won't ever retcon it themselves. Although, it is a benefit of the existence of DSC; it can help make further sense of the ENT era with the occasional references without having to actually revisit the ENT era.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Holodeck fantasy for me. It's hard to imagine the Holodeck is not setting the scenario of events to cater to the user's, Riker, sensibilities, and also the episode never felt organic because the story's focal point is on him and not the main characters. Also, I can't get pass how much older Riker and Troi looked in that episode; they didn't look anything like what they appeared on TNG. It's more like a holodeck fantasy on top of a holodeck fantasy; Riker wanting to relive his days on 1701-D and making an additional request to be a Chef in the ENT universe.

Yeah, a big hint for this being true could be the appearance of the Ferengi as well as the Borg in "Regeneration".

For the Ferengi, it doesn't make any sense for them to encounter the NX-01 and not being around for over 200 years.

And the Borg sphere was totally destroyed in FC. There couldn't be any debris bigger than a pebble to be found on Earth imo. Not to speak about surviving Borg drones.

 

[Dukhat]

Yeah, a big hint for this being true could be the appearance of the Ferengi as well as the Borg in "Regeneration".

For the Ferengi, it doesn't make any sense for them to encounter the NX-01 and not being around for over 200 years.

And the Borg sphere was totally destroyed in FC. There couldn't be any debris bigger than a pebble to be found on Earth imo. Not to speak about surviving Borg drones.

As much as I would like the entire series of ENT to have been nothing more than Riker's fantasy, sadly that is not the case.

 

[STEPhon IT]

So there's an episode in-between "The Pegasus" where Riker and Troi suffered a similar radiation effect where Kirk and Co. had in "The Deadly Years" and was cured after the closing credits of "These are the voyages...".

 

[FederationHistorian]

As much as I would like the entire series of ENT to have been nothing more than Riker's fantasy, sadly that is not the case.

I have a hypothetical question for you.

How would you feel if there was brief dialogue in PIC S2 or S3 where you see the La Sirena crew in a Starfleet museum and are in the NX-01 exhibit (where we see both group photos and individual photos (which are really reused promotional pics) and NX -01 refit only? And Picard remarks to the La Sirena crew how the NX refit (which can be retconned as the official NX design from 2150-2160, because FC created a new timeline) was a precursor to the Constitution class and the Akira class was a tribute to it. And the La Sirena crew discuss some of the missions that happened during ENT. And it revealed during that conversation that TATV is really just Riker’s simulation, as the NX-01 was lost at the end of the Earth-Romulan War at the Battle of Cheron. And Archer and Sato were the only ones of the NX-01 that survived due to reaching the escape pods.

Would you treat it as an acceptable retcon of ENT finale?

 

[Dukhat]

I have a hypothetical question for you.

How would you feel if there was brief dialogue in PIC S2 or S3 where you see the La Sirena crew in a Starfleet museum and are in the NX-01 exhibit (where we see both group photos and individual photos (which are really reused promotional pics) and NX -01 refit only? And Picard remarks to the La Sirena crew how the NX refit (which can be retconned as the official NX design from 2150-2160, because FC created a new timeline) was a precursor to the Constitution class and the Akira class was a tribute to it. And the La Sirena crew discuss some of the missions that happened during ENT. And it revealed during that conversation that TATV is really just Riker’s simulation, as the NX-01 was lost at the end of the Earth-Romulan War at the Battle of Cheron. And Archer and Sato were the only ones of the NX-01 that survived due to reaching the escape pods.

Would you treat it as an acceptable retcon of ENT finale?

Well, yes I would accept it, because the retcon would be canon. Why wouldn’t I? Although it’s not like this would ever happen.

But I’m not sure I understand your question. What would FC have to do with turning the NX-01 into the NX-01 refit? And why do you think it made a new timeline?

 

[FederationHistorian]

Well, yes I would accept it, because the retcon would be canon. Why wouldn’t I? Although it’s not like this would ever happen.

But I’m not sure I understand your question. What would FC have to do with turning the NX-01 into the NX-01 refit? And why do you think it made a new timeline?

I think of the refit as the true NX-01, with the NX-01 featured in ENT was due to an alternate timeline created, due to the events of FC (i.e. the Borg attack on the warp complex, the wreckage of the Borg left behind, and Cochrane witnessing the Enterprise-E while flying by in the Phoenix, possibly even a PADD accidentally left behind with an external model of the Akira class). I would look upon the events of FC resulting in moderate changes during the time of ENT, resulting in a slightly different timeline, culminating in the events of TATV and an older looking Riker and Troi.

This is in comparison of the temporal mechanics that resulted in a significant change in the timeline in “Endgame” in VOY when Admiral Janeway traveled back in time to advise the Voyager crew to use the transwarp hub to go home. And a minor change in the timeline with Sisko having to impersonate Gabriel Bell in “Past Tense”, but the timeline remaining the same other.

 

[Dukhat]

I think of the refit as the true NX-01, with the NX-01 featured in ENT was due to an alternate timeline created, due to the events of FC (i.e. the Borg attack on the warp complex, the wreckage of the Borg left behind, and Cochrane witnessing the Enterprise-E while flying by in the Phoenix, possibly even a PADD accidentally left behind with an external model of the Akira class). I would look upon the events of FC resulting in moderate changes during the time of ENT, resulting in a slightly different timeline, culminating in the events of TATV and an older looking Riker and Troi.

Ah, ok, now I understand your point, although I don't quite agree that FC created an alternate timeline.

 

[Tenacity]

Current American history as taught to schoolkids is full of rank exaggerations and outright inaccuracies.

But only American history right?

It's been a looooong time since I read them too, but I know for sure Mayweather leaves during the Romulan War.

I did not read that particular story, but that sounds completely ridiculous. No service is going to let a trained officer simpy "leave" in the middle of a war. Mayweather wouild be in for the duration of the conflict.

Holodeck fantasy for me.

Possibly.

It's been noted that all the characters in the series speak somewhat unusually. Like they're in a stage play, waiting their turn to deliver they lines, so a audience can understand.

Also they frequently explain basic information and concepts to each other that realistically a train crew wouldn't need to hear.

in other words they don't talk like real people.

Out-universe the explaination is obvious, in-universe not so much.

 

[ChristopherPike]

There's definitely a fantasy fifth season of Enterprise I see in my head, that begins with an opening episode implying the Temporal Cold War is still somehow raging. We're shown that for 24th Century characters, the holodeck recreation of the NX-01's final mission is accurate from their perspective, because history has been changed around them.

Let's say that no Romulan-Earth conflict happened between 2156 and 2160, so the Federation charter we see Archer signing was born from different, less disastrous events. Next scene we begin to discover further discontinuities in that TNG Season 6 setting, differences in the Enterprise D crew around Riker and Troi, culminating in a bearded Picard who - while retaining his Captaincy - still has Borg implants. Or a Data, who we only heard over the com until this point, shown to be very altered in appearance. That sort of thing to imply a sense of "You're not where you thought you were".

From there on it's quickly established there's something essentially missing from the timeline now, essential to the Next Generation era being the way we remember it, which the Romulan War was the catalyst for. But alterations not so different that an episode like "The Pegasus" can remain unaffected by.

Enterprise cast still play a big part in the episode, since it's their show outside of this ENT/TNG crossover. But all of a sudden it becomes a two-parter of #98 "These are the Voyages..." and #99 "To Boldly Go..." with Trip's death as a cliffhanger to Season 4 and obviously a resolve coming during Season 5.

Now then CBS All Access, where do I sign that consultant producer contract for this renewed show?

 

[FederationHistorian]

There's definitely a fantasy fifth season of Enterprise I see in my head, that begins with an opening episode implying the Temporal Cold War is still somehow raging. We're shown that for 24th Century characters, the holodeck recreation of the NX-01's final mission is accurate from their perspective, because history has been changed around them.

Let's say that no Romulan-Earth conflict happened between 2156 and 2160, so the Federation charter we see Archer signing was born from different, less disastrous events. Next scene we begin to discover further discontinuities in that TNG Season 6 setting, differences in the Enterprise D crew around Riker and Troi, culminating in a bearded Picard who - while retaining his Captaincy - still has Borg implants. Or a Data, who we only heard over the com until this point, shown to be very altered in appearance. That sort of thing to imply a sense of "You're not where you thought you were".

From there on it's quickly established there's something essentially missing from the timeline now, essential to the Next Generation era being the way we remember it, which the Romulan War was the catalyst for. But alterations not so different that an episode like "The Pegasus" can remain unaffected by.

Enterprise cast still play a big part in the episode, since it's their show outside of this ENT/TNG crossover. But all of a sudden it becomes a two-parter of #98 "These are the Voyages..." and #99 "To Boldly Go..." with Trip's death as a cliffhanger to Season 4 and obviously a resolve coming during Season 5.

Now then CBS All Access, where do I sign that consultant producer contract for this renewed show?

I’d go with your idea, but I’d also go further with other alterations and do world building for that specific episode. Khan, McGivers, and the rest of the Augments successfully settled on a different planet and became a full-fledged civilization recognized by the Federation by the time of TNG. Tasha Yar is still alive and the Ent-D never got destroyed. Sisko isn’t in command of DS9 having died in the battle of Wolf 359; Dukat is and the Occupation of Bajor is ongoing. Voyager returns immediately from the Delta Quadrant after first contact with the Caretaker, meaning the next seven years don’t happen. Basically, the absence of the Romulan War had massive consequences that reverberated for centuries and all of the known series and movies beyond TNG, although TNG would still remain the focus of the episode. None of these conflicts with “The Pegasus” setting either.

And somehow, the Suliban Cabal, Future Guy, and Daniels are connected to all of this. And Archer finds a way to finally end the Temporal Cold War, but also alters the past ten years of his mission in the process, meaning certain events he experiences or was a part of won't happen, or at least the way he remembers them.

 

[ChristopherPike]

It's just so annoying that an episode like "These are the Voyages..." is so contentious, it basically shut down further possibilities... AND worse still, taints the rest of Enterprise for newcomers - and those who were there, because why would you want to put yourselves through those 4 years again only to reach that ending? That's the mistake an otherwise positive franchise made. It's makers were so intent on indulging their own misery at this show being the end of an 18-year era, and produce some kind of summation of 1987-2005, they did a complete U-turn on the fun adventurous atmosphere of the preceding 20-something episode season... of a show that had begun to map out its future. Now cancellation was always going to ensure that never came to pass, but all the more reason for leaving on a open-ended finale IMO. They mirrored the real downbeat depressed attitude into the fantasy onscreen, when there was really no desire coming from the audience still loyally watching Enterprise by that point.

"These are the Voyages..." kind of demands fixing with a second part every time I watch it, which admittedly isn't often these days. And the best way is to face it head-on, rather than ignore it. Unfortunately that seems to mean the 24th Century and working backwards - specifically recreating TNG at the peak of its popularity, and a boat that has doubly sailed in terms of picking up where it left off. Furthermore as I've pointed out, you have a potential in-built fix created by Enterprise itself - the Temporal Cold War, but which few fans were overly fond of to begin with. Again sad, because shows like "Broken Bow", "Shockwave" and "Future Tense", I found to be great and it's just a question of resolving storylines that the writers were clearly making up as they went along.

Literally frustration piled on frustration, even just thinking about it for your own fan fiction purposes. Some of us have basically become Future Guy, wanting to find a way of communicating with the past and change what happened to make the outcome different.