Geordi in Descent v. Data in Interface

[Mojochi]

So, in Descent, Data has something of a personal crisis, having had his 1st emotion, under pretty disturbing circumstances. He tries to make sense of it, thru rational experimentation. Trying to recreate the Borg killing that caused his emotional reaction, he employs the holodeck, but runs afoul of its safety protocols. He implores Geordi to give him a 2nd authorization to disable them, based on the reality that there were no such protections during the real event, and that its inauthenticity might inhibit his genuine reaction. Geordi outright refuses, as it would pose a real danger to Data's safety, even though this event lies at the core of his lifelong struggle with his own identity.

Jump forward 2 episodes, maybe only a matter of weeks later, & now it's Geordi with a personal crisis, where his recently lost & presumed dead mother appears to him, via a risky probe link that Geordi's been experimenting with for a mission. Thoroughly obsessed with resolving what he thinks is the event that has endangered her, he risks his own safety by utilizing the link at ever increasing levels of endangerment, in disobedience of direct orders.

Data predicts his disobedient actions, and turns up to stop him, which he easily could. However, after realizing Geordi's determination & unwillingness to relent, and that stopping him might damage their relationship, he agrees to assist him, in order to safeguard him, during it, risking punitive actions to himself as well. (Which we never find out about)

Ultimately, the same trust & loyalty that Geordi would not extend to Data, in his moment of need, Data DID extend to him, only a short time later, that if your closest friend has a core crisis they're willing to risk their life for, you need to be "ride or die" with them. I've always wondered if Geordi ever had that realization afterward... That Data had been a better friend to him than he'd been to Data.

 

[Herald252]

I believe the issue lies in the context of potential harm. In Data’s case, he repeatedly rehearsed a murder to experience the sensation. Geordi may have assumed that Data desired to risk his life, but Data has survived the real outcome, indicating that he could overpower the Borg and kill it. However, the purpose is to feel anger again, to experience anger once more, and to confront the threat to life with the possibility of taking a life. From Geordi’s human perspective, this is not the path one would want their human friend to embark on, let alone an android who might become fixated on it due to the absence of other emotions.

I am sure Data has emotions, but he does not perceive his experiences in this way. He has a reference point in Lore, who reacts to emotions differently, and his daughter built upon his own image, who did not live long enough for him to learn that he also experiences love, curiosity, desire, and all the other emotions. After all his first profound emotion was happiness, to the point of laughter, in Deja Q.

To return to the topic, I would also have reservations about participating in this endeavor, as Data himself stated that anger is not his preferred emotion, and Geordi is only human to agree to this experiment from the get-go, he was visibly distressed by it. However, I am sure he would eventually agree, as he would understand Data's perspective and feel empathy for his friend, who is finally on the verge of experiencing the emotions he has longed for regardless of the emotion's "kind". It's quite a large topic they should have reserved for another two-parter - is it worth feeling all kinds of emotions and act on them, etc. However, as the episode shows, they are rushed to the bridge, and the scene ends with a duty call.

In Geordi's case, the situation is different, and Data can quickly rationalize that his friend is willing to risk his life, even if it means death, to uncover the truth about his mother. Geordi is not killing anyone but himself in this act, and his goal is not to feel through murder, but to find the truth about his mother. The circumstances are quite distinct.

 

[Mojochi]

I believe the issue lies in the context of potential harm. In Data’s case, he repeatedly rehearsed a murder to experience the sensation. Geordi may have assumed that Data desired to risk his life, but Data has survived the real outcome, indicating that he could overpower the Borg and kill it. However, the purpose is to feel anger again, to experience anger once more, and to confront the threat to life with the possibility of taking a life. From Geordi’s human perspective, this is not the path one would want their human friend to embark on, let alone an android who might become fixated on it due to the absence of other emotions.

I suppose that's possible, & certainly worth adding to the conversation, the context of what Data is doing & how that would be reacted to by a human. It's a valid observation, but strictly speaking (for whatever reason) that's not the point Geordi is standing by in their debate (which yes, was cut short before it reached its full resolution) He's largely maintaining that he won't help solely based on the risk it poses to Data's life, which to be fair, is an entirely valid reason, in itself. It's just that it didn't dissuade Data, when similarly put up against it, later with Geordi. (Though I admit, maybe there was more to Geordi's objection we never heard due to interruption, & this was just his preliminary point)

To clarify, I'm not in any way saying Geordi is not a good friend to Data. It's appropriate to point out that it is Geordi himself who stops Data from destroying the chip at the end, even after he'd been subjected to some pretty horrid treatment due to it.

I'm merely pointing out that, as it turned out, Data was a more willing friend, when faced with a friend who was risking their life on a stunt they'd staked critical importance on. The situations certainly had differences, but the stakes seemed quite similar IMHO, and I just wanted to highlight Data's overlooked display of showing more compassion to someone than a human had or might otherwise show to him... and pondering whether Geordi had time to ruminate on that, after the fact. It might be a pretty big ego check to realize you didn't come thru for a friend, who then shows you he would do so for you, in a similar circumstance

 

[Herald252]

I'm merely pointing out that, as it turned out, Data was a more willing friend, when faced with a friend who was risking their life on a stunt they'd staked critical importance on. The situations certainly had differences, but the stakes seemed quite similar IMHO, and I just wanted to highlight Data's overlooked display of showing more compassion to someone than a human had or might otherwise show to him... and pondering whether Geordi had time to ruminate on that, after the fact. It might be a pretty big ego check to realize you didn't come thru for a friend, who then shows you he would do so for you, in a similar circumstance

I absolutely agree! Data possesses a higher level of emotional maturity than people often credit him for. While he displays naivety in some instances, this doesn't negate his overall capacity for profound empathy, stemming from his analytic mind and programmed ethics. Data mastered the essential qualities that make humanity valuable – particularly as a paradigm for living and striving for self-education – remarkably quickly. In my opinion, he is the kindest soul and a deeply willing friend.

Geordi, to his credit, was consistently by Data's side. However, I believe he really needed time to adjust to the idea of assisting his friend in a particularly disturbing scenario. This initial reluctance, stemming from an instinctive desire to prevent a friend from getting hurt regardless of the ultimate goal, is, imho, actually a mark of a sincere and caring friend, which may not be equal to a brave one. Data is much more courageous, his courage arises from his highly controlled emotional intellect, which operates in tandem with his incredibly fast-processing positronic mind. Perhaps this is the unique quality that Data possesses — a superiority in adhering to the highest human principles and values that most humans themselves struggle to embody.

 

[Mojochi]

I absolutely agree! Data possesses a higher level of emotional maturity than people often credit him for. While he displays naivety in some instances, this doesn't negate his overall capacity for profound empathy, stemming from his analytic mind and programmed ethics. Data mastered the essential qualities that make humanity valuable – particularly as a paradigm for living and striving for self-education – remarkably quickly. In my opinion, he is the kindest soul and a deeply willing friend.

Geordi, to his credit, was consistently by Data's side. However, I believe he really needed time to adjust to the idea of assisting his friend in a particularly disturbing scenario. This initial reluctance, stemming from an instinctive desire to prevent a friend from getting hurt regardless of the ultimate goal, is, imho, actually a mark of a sincere and caring friend, which may not be equal to a brave one. Data is much more courageous, his courage arises from his highly controlled emotional intellect, which operates in tandem with his incredibly fast-processing positronic mind. Perhaps this is the unique quality that Data possesses — a superiority in adhering to the highest human principles and values that most humans themselves struggle to embody.

You also have to consider that some of Geordi's response to not helping Data could be as a result of Data's nature itself. It would be far easier to see how badly a friend is in need of your support, if that friend was displaying that yearning emotionally, as Geordi did about his mother, but that Data was incapable of demonstrating, about the Borg killing.

It's so easy to overlook or downplay Data's wants/needs, because the people he interacts with are use to seeing emotional drive from a person about their aspirations. It's the easiest explanation I have for why he never got a promotion to commander in all that time aboard, or why he had to speak up to get a command in Redemption. No one ever notices the guy who isn't presenting like they're accustomed.

 

[fireproof78]

I would not ever feel terribly comfortable encouraging a friend to actively seek anger in a life or death situation.

 

[Herald252]

You also have to consider that some of Geordi's response to not helping Data could be as a result of Data's nature itself. It would be far easier to see how badly a friend is in need of your support, if that friend was displaying that yearning emotionally, as Geordi did about his mother, but that Data was incapable of demonstrating, about the Borg killing.

It's so easy to overlook or downplay Data's wants/needs, because the people he interacts with are use to seeing emotional drive from a person about their aspirations. It's the easiest explanation I have for why he never got a promotion to commander in all that time aboard, or why he had to speak up to get a command in Redemption. No one ever notices the guy who isn't presenting like they're accustomed.

The promotion that never occurred remains a mystery to me. According to Troi's promotion, to attain the rank of full Commander, he had to pass the same test, even though he was already a bridge officer capable of assuming command of the ship in the event of need, which was a frequent occurrence. I am unsure whether this promotion to full Commander can be initiated solely by the individual seeking advancement or if it requires the approval of superiors, accompanied by some form of encouragement, such as, "Why are you still only a two-and-a-half-pip officer? It's time to shine!"

In both cases anyway Picard himself or Geordi could have at least asked him why he is still sitting on Lt. Commander rank when he is clearly mature enough for full Commander for years now... This attitude towards him is the reason why in my solo RPG game I dragged him off the Enterprise and did the thing, he is Commander in my story xD.

I would not ever feel terribly comfortable encouraging a friend to actively seek anger in a life or death situation.

This is why this particular instance of their friendship is difficult to walk around. It is tragic that he seeks out anger, but it is the only emotion in his mind that he can truly feel and connect with the humanity he desires. There is no one wise enough to sit and advise him that he does not need such emotions to feel human.

 

[Mojochi]

I would not ever feel terribly comfortable encouraging a friend to actively seek anger in a life or death situation.

I'm not really saying it should be encouraged. Even risking their life over either of their theories shouldn't be encouraged imho. I'm really just looking at their willingness to be "ride or die", once one of them is unable to be dissuaded from it.

If you can't talk them out of it, do you bail? report them? Or do you finally acquiesce and try to help them, in order to mitigate the danger, because it's the loyal thing to do? Geordi could've authorized the simulation & then he could've been on hand to abort it, in the event it did look like it was going to far. He didn't do that (or didn't get enough of a chance or persuasion to) Data did do it for him though, even at the risk of his own career

Data has Geordi's back, when the things get sticky, a little bit more maybe, is ultimately my takeaway from this

 

[fireproof78]

report them?

This one.

Laws in the future might be different.

 

[Mojochi]

This one.

Laws in the future might be different.

But Data didn't do that, & he easily could've, & then had the whole probe link thingy shut down on Geordi. Instead, he saw how much it mattered to him & saw that if he did that, it might be the end of their friendship, & it might be a source of permanent emotional damage to him. He chose to instead hang in there with him, even when things are more morally ambiguous. Data's a G thru thick & thin, man, & Geordi didn't come thru similarly, in a pinch imho

 

[fireproof78]

But Data didn't do that, & he easily could've, & then had the whole probe link thingy shut down on Geordi. Instead, he saw how much it mattered to him & saw that if he did that, it might be the end of their friendship, & it might be a source of permanent emotional damage to him. He chose to instead hang in there with him, even when things are more morally ambiguous. Data's a G thru thick & thin, man, & Geordi didn't come thru similarly, in a pinch imho

I'll disagree. I think there is more than one way to demonstrate being a friend.