I found the first half or so to be kind of boring.
But I was a puddle of goo by the end.
But I was a puddle of goo by the end.
Arrow - The Final Season
- Thread starter Enterprise is Great
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I liked the final episode, but thinking about it some more, it just feels like Crisis took a lot of wind out of its sails. This felt like an epilogue of sorts, with saying goodbye to all the regulars while the lead character basically took most of it off. I was glad we did get Amell, even if it was flashbacks and the ending, but while the season was about Oliver saying goodbye, this episode was about everyone else saying goodbye. From an emotional angle it did work. It is just so odd that a series finale had to work in its lead character through flashbacks rather than have him actually being the lead character one last time.
Wow. That is ... messed up. My local CW affiliate seems to have an inordinate number of technical problems, but at least they don't deliberately compromise the programming.
What was a bit unclear is why Oliver didn't bring back original Laurel. Just because Earth 2 Laurel turned into someone decent doesn't mean that original Laurel couldn't have been brought back. That really didn't make sense.
I could be wrong, but in the post Crisis world, has the word "Diggle" been used? The only place I saw it was the documentary at the beginning of the finale. If that's the case, then I think they made a small mistake. Oliver should have altered history so John's took his stepfather's last name, and just bit the bullet and made him John Stewart.
At first, I thought they were giving Hal Jordan's origin to Diggle, but I'm glad they didn't do that.
Now we have an interesting set up. I am far more interested in Diggle as a Green Lantern than the 2040 series. It sounds like the Arrowverse isn't done with David Ramsey, and that could lead to interesting things.
Will he be on the HBO Max series?
Or will he be on Superman and Lois?
I could be wrong, but in the post Crisis world, has the word "Diggle" been used? The only place I saw it was the documentary at the beginning of the finale. If that's the case, then I think they made a small mistake. Oliver should have altered history so John's took his stepfather's last name, and just bit the bullet and made him John Stewart.
At first, I thought they were giving Hal Jordan's origin to Diggle, but I'm glad they didn't do that.
Now we have an interesting set up. I am far more interested in Diggle as a Green Lantern than the 2040 series. It sounds like the Arrowverse isn't done with David Ramsey, and that could lead to interesting things.
Will he be on the HBO Max series?
Or will he be on Superman and Lois?
I thought it was a nice wrapup to the series. It was largely about checking off some final boxes, but it did so effectively, and it's nice that the show had the luxury to devote the whole final season to wrapping things up instead of just having an abrupt, unsatisfying finale like a lot of shows have. It's amazing how many guest stars they managed to get back. And there were some nice sentimental moments tying things off for so many of the characters.
And omigosh they actually went there. Diggle and the green glowing box. I thought they might do something like this, but I'm still kind of amazed they actually did. And the producers are saying they still have plans for Diggle going forward, and he and Lyla are moving to Metropolis when we have a Superman series in the works...........
Meanwhile, I read yesterday that the producers were teasing one last nod to a non-Arrowverse series in this finale, and I was wondering if it might be Justin Hartley's Green Arrow showing up, or maybe a nod to Lois & Clark or Gotham... and it was a "Van Wayne Industries" billboard behind Thea when Roy proposed. Van Wayne. Alan Tudyk's character from the dire Powerless sitcom (based on an obscure cousin of Bruce's from a single 1962 comics issue). That was the last show I expected them to nod to, though maybe it was more a nod to Tudyk than to the unfunny character he played in an unfunny flop of a show.
That's kind of appropriate, though, because this whole series, this whole franchise, has had the overarching theme that Oliver Queen inspired so many others to follow in his footsteps and become heroes themselves, and now both his fellow heroes and the franchise continue to grow and thrive without Oliver/Arrow, carrying on his/its legacy. Oliver Queen created this universe, both metatextually and now textually, so in a way he's still the lead even when the story's about everyone else.
She's there on a visitor's pass. Forged credentials. If anyone could hack the security of Heaven itself, it's Felicity Smoak.
And omigosh they actually went there. Diggle and the green glowing box. I thought they might do something like this, but I'm still kind of amazed they actually did. And the producers are saying they still have plans for Diggle going forward, and he and Lyla are moving to Metropolis when we have a Superman series in the works...........
Meanwhile, I read yesterday that the producers were teasing one last nod to a non-Arrowverse series in this finale, and I was wondering if it might be Justin Hartley's Green Arrow showing up, or maybe a nod to Lois & Clark or Gotham... and it was a "Van Wayne Industries" billboard behind Thea when Roy proposed. Van Wayne. Alan Tudyk's character from the dire Powerless sitcom (based on an obscure cousin of Bruce's from a single 1962 comics issue). That was the last show I expected them to nod to, though maybe it was more a nod to Tudyk than to the unfunny character he played in an unfunny flop of a show.
That's kind of appropriate, though, because this whole series, this whole franchise, has had the overarching theme that Oliver Queen inspired so many others to follow in his footsteps and become heroes themselves, and now both his fellow heroes and the franchise continue to grow and thrive without Oliver/Arrow, carrying on his/its legacy. Oliver Queen created this universe, both metatextually and now textually, so in a way he's still the lead even when the story's about everyone else.
She's there on a visitor's pass. Forged credentials. If anyone could hack the security of Heaven itself, it's Felicity Smoak.
Ah, “Arrow,” thank you for 8 uneven but still worthy seasons of action adventure. I was slow getting into this, mostly because I really liked Justin Hartley as Oliver Queen in “Smallville.” But when a buddy raved about it, I binged on it when it hit Netflix and I was hooked. Just a few things I felt as I was watching the final season…
1. Thank you for keeping Ricardo Diaz dead. He was one of the series’ least effective villains and was around long after his freshness date. Although, I kept waiting for him to pop up. Note for the future: if you torch a baddie who has cheated death before, you really have to show us the body, ya know?
2. The final season was exceptionally strong until “Crisis.” I was massively unimpressed with everything other than the amount of cameos they managed.
3. Oliver’s death didn’t move me in the slightest. Why? Because he died in the first episode of “Crisis” and you knew Oliver Queen wouldn’t actually die on someone else’s show on the first episode of an epic crossover. So when he died again, I was already wary of it sticking. Yeah, I knew the show was ending, but they could have pulled a Steve Rogers. I am only sad because I’ll miss the series, the characters and I particularly miss Ollie having a more realistic and grounded send off. I wanted to cry. Instead, I watched a bunch of other people cry.
4. Not a single “Hoss” all season!
5. Ragman! I missed him. But why did he even come back? Wasn’t he pissed at Oliver? And Felicity? Granted, a lot of details have faded over the seasons for me, but all of these tears for a guy many of them kinda hated for most of the run who was, until the last year or so, a total dick to them seemed slightly forced.
6. Real Laurel should have come back. That was bullshit, honestly. Put Fake Laurel in the future and give Lance his actual daughter back. Or have them both there! How much fun would that be?
7. Eh, I wasn’t moved by Lance’s speech either. Paul Blackthorne's peformance seemed off. And jeez, I will never, ever miss the word “vigilante.” I was fine with the press and authorities calling them that, but they really should have called themselves something more heroic. “Crime fighters,” “heroes” or whatever. It’s like the Legends always calling themselves “Legends.” What makes them legendary?
So, I guess I’m a heartless prick, but I felt little. A whole hour devoted to eulogies was a bit much, and the timing of all of Roy’s love speeches were misplaced. I know they called it out, but still…I would have preferred Thea said “let’s see where this goes” and they just got back together. Anyway, it was great to see everyone back again.
As far the the DCU is concerned, I'm about done. "Arrow" was my favorite with "Flash" and "Batwoman" being the only two I have even a little patience for anymore.
1. Thank you for keeping Ricardo Diaz dead. He was one of the series’ least effective villains and was around long after his freshness date. Although, I kept waiting for him to pop up. Note for the future: if you torch a baddie who has cheated death before, you really have to show us the body, ya know?
2. The final season was exceptionally strong until “Crisis.” I was massively unimpressed with everything other than the amount of cameos they managed.
3. Oliver’s death didn’t move me in the slightest. Why? Because he died in the first episode of “Crisis” and you knew Oliver Queen wouldn’t actually die on someone else’s show on the first episode of an epic crossover. So when he died again, I was already wary of it sticking. Yeah, I knew the show was ending, but they could have pulled a Steve Rogers. I am only sad because I’ll miss the series, the characters and I particularly miss Ollie having a more realistic and grounded send off. I wanted to cry. Instead, I watched a bunch of other people cry.
4. Not a single “Hoss” all season!
5. Ragman! I missed him. But why did he even come back? Wasn’t he pissed at Oliver? And Felicity? Granted, a lot of details have faded over the seasons for me, but all of these tears for a guy many of them kinda hated for most of the run who was, until the last year or so, a total dick to them seemed slightly forced.
6. Real Laurel should have come back. That was bullshit, honestly. Put Fake Laurel in the future and give Lance his actual daughter back. Or have them both there! How much fun would that be?
7. Eh, I wasn’t moved by Lance’s speech either. Paul Blackthorne's peformance seemed off. And jeez, I will never, ever miss the word “vigilante.” I was fine with the press and authorities calling them that, but they really should have called themselves something more heroic. “Crime fighters,” “heroes” or whatever. It’s like the Legends always calling themselves “Legends.” What makes them legendary?
So, I guess I’m a heartless prick, but I felt little. A whole hour devoted to eulogies was a bit much, and the timing of all of Roy’s love speeches were misplaced. I know they called it out, but still…I would have preferred Thea said “let’s see where this goes” and they just got back together. Anyway, it was great to see everyone back again.
As far the the DCU is concerned, I'm about done. "Arrow" was my favorite with "Flash" and "Batwoman" being the only two I have even a little patience for anymore.
That was explained back in the pilot. "Legends of Tomorrow" means they're not legends yet but they will be in the future. Well, actually that was just Rip Hunter's sales pitch to trick a bunch of historically disposable C-listers into helping him, but the name stuck and they've made it their own.
I thought it was a very good ending for the show. You didn't really need just some more random action stuff though we did get some action. I felt this was very character driven and also a nice way to sort of see everyone together again and I really liked bringing all the dead people back like his mom and Tommy etc. I do wish Deathstroke was in it. I did miss seeing him again. Also it would have been a nice small touch but I wish Oliver would have brought back that one guy all the way in season 1 who he kills for no other reason other to hide his secret identity. Always felt that was one of his worst murders and I would have liked to see that he no doubt felt guilt for that murder and used Crisis as a means of bringing that guy back.
Jason
Jason
The one inconsistency I don't get is that Dinah said last week that she woke up to discover she'd been transported to the future and erased from existence, but here she's still around and remembered in the present. I assumed she meant that she was erased as the result of the post-Crisis reset, that she just wasn't part of the world's history anymore, but now we know that's not the case. And there's no explanation of what causes her erasure/time jump after that. I guess maybe they're saving that as a mystery for the spinoff, but it's an odd dangling thread. (When Quentin said he thought Dinah was ghosting him, I thought that would be the setup for her disappearance, but then she was still around for the rest of the episode. So I wonder what the point of that line even was.)
Anyway, we now get more proof of what I'd already concluded, that the post-Crisis changes were shaped by the will or wishes of Spectre-Oliver and the Paragons. Ollie brought back his lost loved ones and Saved His City, Lex made himself successful and beloved, Kate brought back her sister, and I can only assume that the reason the Earths merged is that Barry and Kara really, really wanted to hang out more often. I wonder what changes J'onn, Sara, and Ryan Choi willed into existence. Is J'onn's father alive again? Are the Green Martians back?
Anyway, we now get more proof of what I'd already concluded, that the post-Crisis changes were shaped by the will or wishes of Spectre-Oliver and the Paragons. Ollie brought back his lost loved ones and Saved His City, Lex made himself successful and beloved, Kate brought back her sister, and I can only assume that the reason the Earths merged is that Barry and Kara really, really wanted to hang out more often. I wonder what changes J'onn, Sara, and Ryan Choi willed into existence. Is J'onn's father alive again? Are the Green Martians back?
Don't fear the reaper.
Maybe Sara made Eva a real family instead of being a clone. Would be awesome if Dr Stein was also brought back alive also and they don't know it but maybe he never went on the Waverider or he did but feels he needs to stay on earth with his family since I don't think you could get Victor Garber back as a regular.
Jason
I wonder if we'll find out that Barry brought his parents back to life. Although maybe he couldn't "change anything that changed him" either. Maybe he brought their doppelgangers Jay and Joan Garrick through to be his surrogate parents. Along with bringing Harry and Jesse Wells back to life from Earth-2.
And hey, he could've brought Eddie Thawne back. It's not like Eddie dying prevented Eobard's existence anyway.
I'm also kind of hoping that somehow Gorilla City ended up on Earth Prime. Not sure why Barry would've wished for that specifically, but it'd be a waste if it no longer existed.
And hey, he could've brought Eddie Thawne back. It's not like Eddie dying prevented Eobard's existence anyway.
I'm also kind of hoping that somehow Gorilla City ended up on Earth Prime. Not sure why Barry would've wished for that specifically, but it'd be a waste if it no longer existed.
I bet Barry brought back his daughter and maybe his dad but not his mom. His mom's death had a bigger impact because he was already The Flash when his dad got killed. I also feel Killer Frost is going to be either get her own body or will be the only personality left. Also instead of being on different worlds I suspect their are going to be dozens if not more Harrison Wells now living on Earth 1. Maybe something to do with how many different Wells have already visited Earth 1.
Jason
Jason
Yeah, I agree. I really hope they saved Harry, Jesse, Joan and Jay.
I was pretty happy with the way things played out.
I know Diggle becoming a Green Lantern is pure fan service, but thinking about it, it really is a perfect outcome him. He was always the most grounded character, and the one who seemed the most freaked out by all the aliens and metas running around, so the idea of him going off to become a space cop with a whole bunch of crazy looking aliens is a great way to end things for him. If he does come back at some point, I really hope it's on one of the other Arrowverse shows, and not the Green Lantern series. I'm not subscribing to HBO Max, so I'd prefer to see him on a show I can watch.
Ollive bringing back Moria, Tommy, and Quentin was a nice way to bring them back for the finale. I was a little surprised they had Moria talking openly about the pre-Crisis reality in the documentary at the beginning, nobody but the Paragons and the people J'Onn woke should have known about that. I wonder if Ollie let them remember the pre-Crisis world the same way Lena did, or if someone artificially woke them up?
The flashback at the beginning was a nice way to work Deathstroke into the finale, without actually bringing back Manu Bennett.
I've been a Roy/Thea shipper so I was really happy with their engagement.
I was a little surprised Oliver didn't bring back the Earth-1 Laurel, but I guess they must have wanted to keep Laurel-2 around for the spin-off.
Overall I was very happy with this, I thought it was a great farewell to the show. Watching all the lights turn off in the bunker was the big moment for me where it really felt like the show was ending.
I had the exact same reaction to him.
Dinah said she appeared the morning after Ollie's funeral, and I think everything after the funeral was still that same day. So I'm assuming she went to Metropolis, fell asleep, and then woke up the next day in Star City in 2040.
I was pretty happy with the way things played out.
I know Diggle becoming a Green Lantern is pure fan service, but thinking about it, it really is a perfect outcome him. He was always the most grounded character, and the one who seemed the most freaked out by all the aliens and metas running around, so the idea of him going off to become a space cop with a whole bunch of crazy looking aliens is a great way to end things for him. If he does come back at some point, I really hope it's on one of the other Arrowverse shows, and not the Green Lantern series. I'm not subscribing to HBO Max, so I'd prefer to see him on a show I can watch.
Ollive bringing back Moria, Tommy, and Quentin was a nice way to bring them back for the finale. I was a little surprised they had Moria talking openly about the pre-Crisis reality in the documentary at the beginning, nobody but the Paragons and the people J'Onn woke should have known about that. I wonder if Ollie let them remember the pre-Crisis world the same way Lena did, or if someone artificially woke them up?
The flashback at the beginning was a nice way to work Deathstroke into the finale, without actually bringing back Manu Bennett.
I've been a Roy/Thea shipper so I was really happy with their engagement.
I was a little surprised Oliver didn't bring back the Earth-1 Laurel, but I guess they must have wanted to keep Laurel-2 around for the spin-off.
Overall I was very happy with this, I thought it was a great farewell to the show. Watching all the lights turn off in the bunker was the big moment for me where it really felt like the show was ending.
These are some good ideas. It would be a great explanation to certain changes, though I would guess no. Jefferson wasn't a paragon, so that likely could explain BL's city being the same. But the idea that the paragons could subconsciously change things would be a fun exploration.
But that would make it doubly ridiculous that original Laurel wasn't brought back. You had Oliver and a paragon who would want that.
I wouldn't be shocked if Gorilla City does exist on Earth Prime. Regarding Barry's parents, let's not forget that the entire Flash series is an alternate timeline, caused by Thawne traveling back in time and killing Barry's parents. In both timelines, he became the Flash and in both timelines, was a great hero.
I hope Harry and Jesse are indeed back. I'd like them to remind the main characters what the audience knows--the multiverse DOES exist.
They pulled that on Supergirl, so why not?
I thought of another question, did Ollie make it so Emiko was never a villain? I forgot until Iooked her up on the Arrowverse Wiki that she had died, which means he at least brought her back to life, but the other Queens all seemed OK with her, so I'm thinking she must not have joined the Ninth Circle in the new reality.
I also got a kick out of seeing the al Ghul sisters interact for the first time.
I just realized, Oliver had two half-sister, each from one of his parents, but no siblings from both of them together.
I also got a kick out of seeing the al Ghul sisters interact for the first time.
I just realized, Oliver had two half-sister, each from one of his parents, but no siblings from both of them together.
It'd be great to get all the (surviving) multigenerational Flashes in one episode -- Jay, Barry, Wally, Jesse, Nora.
Hmm, I recognized Rory right away and was glad to see him. I was disappointed that they never brought him back before now.
It's also a shame they didn't get Ray Palmer, since he was on Team Arrow before he was a Legend.
I think Star City has generally been portrayed as a West Coast city (aside from that one time early on when it was near the Great Lakes), so it would take more than a day to get to Metropolis by motorcycle, assuming Metropolis is on the East Coast.
That describes half of what happens in the Arrowverse.
I think it's fitting in another way, just in keeping with his character as a soldier and protector. Everybody gives Oliver credit for inspiring all these other heroes, but Diggle was the one who made Oliver a hero. I'm glad his role in the universe isn't over.
It'll be out on DVD eventually. I don't subscribe to DC Universe, but right now I'm bingeing Young Justice: Outsiders on DVD thanks to the library. They have Titans, Doom Patrol, and Swamp Thing too, but I'm not sure how interested I am in those.
IIRC, Moira didn't say she personally remembered it, she said it had been explained to her.
As a matter of fact, Diggle will be in next week's episode of The Flash, though just as Diggle rather than GL. (Apparently the episode will involve Barry and Team Flash dealing with Oliver's death, and Diggle will be the connection to that.)
I'll probably buy the Green Lantern series eventually, especially if it is about John Diggle/Stewart, I'd just rather not have to spend money on it. I know there's a chance that my library could get it, but I swore off renting discs after I had to send 4 or 5 discs back to Netflix because they had been so badly damaged by previous renters that they were unwatchable.
I've already gotten the digital version of Doom Patrol, which I haven't watched and Titans on Blu-Ray.
I've already gotten the digital version of Doom Patrol, which I haven't watched and Titans on Blu-Ray.
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