Any Love for Insurrection?

[DonIago]

...I'm going to need a permalink to this post.

 

[Tosk]

Does the immortality effect make people unable or uninterested in having children? No, we are specifically shown the opposite to be true - people who come to Ba'ku if anything become more willing and able to reproduce.

I haven't seen it in a while...when are we shown this?

 

[HaventGotALife]

But you can't blame the audience here. Films like Inception and The Dark Knight-and for a sci-fi example 2001: A Space Odyssey-have shown that audiences are able to understand films with rich themes, moral dilemmas, and high concepts not usually seen in the average Hollywood movie. Insurrection had the tools to make it a great movie at the time; the same director as their last film, a huge budget, a great composer to do the score, and no direct competition at the box office (the fate that befell Nemesis). No, the failings are in the story.

Forced relocation: The whole story revolves around the Ba'Ku being forced off the planet they live on. Picard has a problem with this idea when he apparently didn't back when it involved the Cardassians? When Wesley gives the same argument to Picard in Journey's End he's given a severe lecture about how as a member of Starfleet he will follow orders no matter what they are. Yeah, the exact same thing Daugherty tells Picard in this film only he's made the bad guy because he's not a main character. We can easily sympathize with the Native Americans in that episode because we as the audience know of the attrocities done to their people, therefore a reason to side with them. The Ba'ku have no such reason other than "we'll lose our simple way of life." A way of life they could do anywhere.

Dominion War and Medical Benefits: Dougherty's main reason for going along with Ru'afo's plan is that the regenerative nature of the planet's rings would be put to use saving lives on the war front. Worf, one of the people who has been on the frontlines since the start of the war, should have been the first person to speak up about this. He would bring up how many lives he's seen killed in battle by the genetically superior enemy and how this could be an advantage for the allied forces that they desperately need. Likewise Beverly would be thinking as a doctor about the patients that would benefit not only in the war, but all over the Federation. The Federation prides itself on being a utopia where things such as disease and sickness are things of the past so why does Doctor Crusher not jump at the chance to make lives better?

An Inconvenient Truth: Because the Ba'ku would be asked to leave is the explanation we're given in the film. Picard tries to say that they're protected by Federation law like the Prime Directive except they're not. By their own admission they're settlers on this planet, not an indigenous people. The only reason they don't leave is because they'll lose their immortality. Now they could take this to the Federation Council to plead that the small number of Ba'ku leaving the planet would lead to their eventual extinction, which might give them a leg to stand on. But this particular aspect is never brought up. It's only "we won't give up our farms because technology is evil." Even a Paramount executive was able to notice this and mentioned it in a memo. This undermines the entire plot leaving the people we're supposed to sympathize with seem extremely petty. No, no; don't give up your little farm to help the billions of people out there dying to protect you from an invasion. We'd hate for you to be slightly inconvenienced by rebuilding on literally any other Class M planet the Federation has open for colonization.

No Technlogy = Easier Life: This isn't something special to this film as it's plagued many, many, many films, but it is brought up by the main Ba'ku guy constantly. A belief that not having technology around will suddenly make life seem simpler. Getting away from the city can be advantagous to one's physical and mental health. Less noise, traffic, and interference from harmful people can help someone clear their head or relax in a way they couldn't otherwise. A reason I see frequently for why people do things like farming is that they like to work with their hands. Fair enough, but anyone who has set foot on any farm can tell you that it's extremely difficult to do without the right tools, it's even harder to build and maintain a whole village. Yet the Ba'ku village and its surrounding areas are able to exist in a state that just isn't possible without the advent of certain tools. Kids having time to play outside in daylight hours? That's not happening. They would be spending every waking hour learning to do a craft by hand. Those not learning a craft would be out in the fields working to make up for the lack of machinery. The irrigation system they have to get water from the nearby lake to their crops wouldn't be able to exist without certain pieces of technology to build it. There's also the fact that the whole place is way too clean to be a place without tech. No crumbling structures, perfectly clean surfaces, no dirt and mud all over the walkways, no stray animals making a mess, no wear and tear from the weather; it reeks of being a set that was only meant to evoke images of paradise that we don't want to see destroyed.

In closing I'll say the Ba'ku were very lucky to deal with someone like Picard. If it were Sisko they had to talk to he would tell them to piss off so he could get back to doing important things like making sure these whiny wannabe elves aren't killed in a Dominion invasion of the entire Alpha Quadrant. The jokes of this story aren't funny, the plight of our "good" faction would be dealt with in five minutes in a more realistic script, the action is extremely tame for a feature film, the romantic subplot has no chemistry, the romantic subplot should have been with Picard and Beverly and not a random girl of the week, and the production design is very average especially when compared to the leaps First Contact made just one film prior. I would have loved to see scenes of various crew members discussing the pros and cons of the situation with some of them being divided in their opinions. Beverly is Chief Medical Officer of the Enterprise, but would Nurse Ogawa feel the same as she does after hearing report after report of how badly things are going for the Alliance against the Dominion? I love that Worf doesn't even have an excuse to be in the story at all. He's just there. My favorite part of that is that he has access to places such as the bridge despite not being a member of the Enterprise crew anymore. He waltzes in and replaces Lt. Nobody at Tactical in this and Nemesis without provocation. How can Picard tell him he's late for his duty assignment when he's still assigned to DS9 and the Defiant? This is all stuff presented in the finished movie and script so again, no, it's not a problem with the audience. If us fans have this many problems and questions from the movie then there's no way in hell the average moviegoer or critic is. If it does something for you, fine, but you can't pass the blame for its failures from the real reasons it doesn't hold up to everyone else.

1. There's a war with Cardassia to consider, in Journey's End.
2. Sojef explains why they are xenophobic and asking them to not be, is like asking the Klingons to become good doctors, or explore the galaxy. You applying your beliefs, to an alien culture.
3. His main reason is to triage on the frontlines? When the hell is this mentioned in the movie?
4. You may want a debate, but it does not follow that since you never got one, it's a bad film.
5. They literally say "It hasn't been easy." Literally, in the script.

Thank you for proving me right. Because you think it's about evil technology, and not being left alone. You think there are parallels to Journey's End, without considering that Wesley, may have just put the Federation at-war with the Cardassians. Because you think clean sets is worth trashing this movie.

These are the complaints is hear:
1. It's trash.
2. What am I watching?
3. I need more violence in my movies.
4. I apply my values to the alien culture, and expect them to act, as I would.

On this movie, it is the audience, and it just happens to be the last time Star Trek didn't have the taste of other science fiction, and demanded something from the audience.

 

[somebuddyX]

The Baku not being indigenous to the planet didn't bother me. If it's your home, it's your home, especially if you've been there 300 years. I didn't care about the medical situation either. Federation technology can do all kinds of miracles. How is this different than McCoy regrowing that woman's kidney or Geordi could go get himself some cloned eyes or something. There's only one of these planets and instead of killing it, maybe the could've studied it and just duplicated the same effects in a lab.

 

[BillJ]

On this movie, it is the audience, and it just happens to be the last time Star Trek didn't have the taste of other science fiction, and demanded something from the audience.

Yeah, it was deep. Pretty people are good... ugly people are bad. They really hit the philosophical ball out of the park. Or did they do they with the breast joke?

 

[Commishsleer]

i wonder what Picard would have done if he'd found a 200 year-old Harry Mudd sitting on that planet.
Would he have given up his career to save Harry's right to the planet?

 

[BillJ]

i wonder what Picard would have done if he'd found a 200 year-old Harry Mudd sitting on that planet.
Would he have given up his career to save Harry's right to the planet?

Fuck no. There's no booty call to be lined up with Harry.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I get what Piller was going for but like a lot of his Native Peoples vs Government Military and simple rural/farm life vs highly industrial society stories and ideas on TNG, DS9 and VOY (the Maqui, Chakotay's character and tribe, various episodes like TNG: Journey's End, DS9: Paradise, VOY: Tattoo), Insurrection falls flat and comes off as preachy.

Virtue signaling is what it's called today. A white, Hollywood writer/producer's romantized interpretation of Native American's history and struggle against The Man!


The Bak'u were bad, not just because they were all white and seemingly selfish for wanting an entire planet (that they were not indigenous to) that could house billions, and they were only 600. The Bak'u were also cowards because they wouldn't lift a finger to defend their own territory. Plus, Piller's inexplicable reasoning for making the Ba'ku tech savy to positronic matrices, holodecks, cloaking devices, androids and other 24th century technological marvels.

But look at how happy and humble they are, we should just all empathize with them and let them stay there, you guys!

 

[Vger23]

I've heard a lot of "pro-Insurrection" arguments in my time...but claiming that it was deeep and "demanded more from the audience" is boarderline #ucking laughable. This is the fluffiest, most lukewarm, "we strove for mediocrity" Trek film in the franchise.

 

[Tenacity]

This is the fluffiest, most lukewarm, "we strove for mediocrity" Trek film in the franchise.

That would be Beyond.

Unlike most Trek movie, Insurrection at the end gives the audience member the choice between different sides. Who was right. Was Picard wrong? Should the particles have been collected?

 

[Tosk]

The Bak'u were bad, not just because they were all white

White people = bad?

seemingly selfish for wanting an entire planet (that they were not indigenous to) that could house billions, and they were only 600.

When did they say that they wanted the entire planet?

 

[M.A.C.O.]

White people = bad?

No. But the film is invoking the displace Native people's for the personal gain of the government trope. "How many people does it take before it becomes wrong?" Trail of Tears imagery. For something like that, the story of how indingenous people's of the America's were displaced and had their land stolen from them. Casting the aliens we the audience are all supposed to empathize with as a bunch of white people is a misstep. Then again, so were the episodes Code of Honor and Justice.

When did they say that they wanted the entire planet?

Went back and watched, and it turns out they didn't. My mistake. The film does not however state that the Feddies or Son'a ever asked the Ba'ku to share their bounty. Film jumps straight to forced relocation and drops any build up for drama and dillema for the Feddies and the heroes. Relocating the Ba'ku only becomes wrong when it's discovered the Ba'ku and Son'a are the same race and thereby makes the conflict an internal conflict, which the Prime Directive forbids the interference therein.

How boring.

 

[BillJ]

When did they say that they wanted the entire planet?

They kicked their kids off-world, instead of just punting them to the other side of the planet.

 

[Tosk]

They kicked their kids off-world, instead of just punting them to the other side of the planet.

We only have Ruafo's inference to go on. Other than his one mention of 'dying slowly', we have no info on the details of the banishment. If indeed they did exile them from the entire planet (In what? The Ba'ku have no ships), it's still because they tried to take over. The Ba'ku seem perfectly happy to receive strangers and never ask them to leave. It sounds more like it was the Son'a who decided "This planet ain't big enough for the two of us!".

 

[DonIago]

Then why don't the Baku say anything once they become aware of the situation?

 

[Tosk]

Say anything about what?

 

[DonIago]

Hell, about anything.

They didn't offer any compromises, they didn't offer to let anyone settle elsewhere on the planet, they didn't explain how they previously repelled the Son'a, they certainly didn't offer to do anything to help defend themselves. Intentionally or otherwise they came off as snobbish nobility content to let Picard et al. fight for them without lifting a finger themselves, and I find it hard to believe that every single one of those 600 people would have been so passive about matters.

They only discovered their immortality through luck, and nothing seen in the movie leads me to believe they deserve it any more than anyone else.

 

[Tosk]

Why didn't they offer a compromise after they found out that someone was trying to forcibly relocate them? What kind of compromise are you thinking about, and how would they offer it? The Ba'ku didn't try to do anything except defend themselves from being kidnapped or killed. If they decided to offer some kind of compromise, (by yelling it outside really loudly?) they'd still be in a holoship headed for elsewhere. Ruafo was not interested in compromise. In the end, he wasn't even interested in letting them live. He also gave orders to kill Starfleet officers if need be.

They don't deserve immortality more than anyone else. But neither do the people who want to take it by force.

 

[DonIago]

The Baku didn't defend themselves though; they let Picard and his crew defend them.

 

[NinjaRaiden2005]

And these are the types of flaws I was talking about in this "really good" script. It shouldn't be up to us-the audience-to explain events in the movie. How did the pacifist Ba'ku get rid of the militaristic Son'a? Never mentioned. Why doesn't the Federation setup hospitals or research stations in orbit? Never brought up. If their vitality is through the roof then why have their numbers not grown since they crashed on the planet? Never explained. I'm not saying a film should spoonfeed the audience every single bit of information, but these are not the thoughts or questions people should be having while they watch.