Agents of SHIELD - Season 2 Discussion Threads. (Spoilers Likely)

[JD]

^Exactly. Just because Coulson has Fury's blessing doesn't make him more legitimate than Gonzales in the government's eyes, if Gonzales works for the US or another government. Fury was put in charge by the World Security Council, so if the Council or one of it's member governments but a new person in charge of a new S.H.I.E.L.D. then that would make them the legitimate S.H.I.E.L.D..

 

[DWF]

^Exactly. Just because Coulson has Fury's blessing doesn't make him more legitimate than Gonzales in the government's eyes, if Gonzales works for the US or another government. Fury was put in charge by the World Security Council, so if the Council or one of it's member governments but a new person in charge of a new S.H.I.E.L.D. then that would make them the legitimate S.H.I.E.L.D..

The same council that was willing to launch a nuclear missile and destroy New York. SHIELD always skirted the law, but then that's always been one of the major problems with the show, their mission as law enforcers is somewhat illdefined.

 

[JD]

The actions they've taken doesn't change the fact that they were the people in charge of S.H.E.I.L.D.. I doubt very much Fury could have just appointed a new director without some kind of approval from the WSC before the events of TWS.

 

[DWF]

Nick Fury is officially dead and the old SHIELD is gone, if the other SHIELD were legal they'd be public about their existance and Coulson would know about them. Of course even in secret Coulson should know about them. SHIELD is now a intelligence organization who seems to operate withnout any real intelligence.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

At the end of Iron Man 2 Stark told Fury that he couldn't afford him as a consultant, so no Stark isn't consultant.

My memory is he rejected him as a member, but kept him on as a consultant.

That's also why the One-Shot featuring him was called "The Consultant."

 

[Turtletrekker]

At the end of Iron Man 2 Stark told Fury that he couldn't afford him as a consultant, so no Stark isn't consultant.

My memory is he rejected him as a member, but kept him on as a consultant.

That's also why the One-Shot featuring him was called "The Consultant."

Stark waved his consulting fee in exchange for getting Senator HYDRA to give him a medal.

 

[DWF]

At the end of Iron Man 2 Stark told Fury that he couldn't afford him as a consultant, so no Stark isn't consultant.

My memory is he rejected him as a member, but kept him on as a consultant.

That's also why the One-Shot featuring him was called "The Consultant."

He told Fury no, that because they couldn't afford him. In any event with no SHIELD he's not a consultant now if he ever was one.

 

[Sci]

At the end of Iron Man 2 Stark told Fury that he couldn't afford him as a consultant, so no Stark isn't consultant.

My memory is he rejected him as a member, but kept him on as a consultant.

That's also why the One-Shot featuring him was called "The Consultant."

He told Fury no, that because they couldn't afford him. In any event with no SHIELD he's not a consultant now if he ever was one.

Acting privately to protect people from criminals while still acting within the law is a far, far cry from operating a security organization that's answerable to no one as fugitives from the law.

Tony Stark doesn't hide from the law and could be arrested if he broke it. Coulson hides from the law to keep from being arrested for constantly breaking it.

Doesn't make Coulson a bad guy, or unjustified. But it's easy to see how a good person could decide he's a criminal who needs to be brought to heel.

 

[DWF]

My memory is he rejected him as a member, but kept him on as a consultant.

That's also why the One-Shot featuring him was called "The Consultant."

He told Fury no, that because they couldn't afford him. In any event with no SHIELD he's not a consultant now if he ever was one.

Acting privately to protect people from criminals while still acting within the law is a far, far cry from operating a security organization that's answerable to no one as fugitives from the law.

Tony Stark doesn't hide from the law and could be arrested if he broke it. Coulson hides from the law to keep from being arrested for constantly breaking it.

Doesn't make Coulson a bad guy, or unjustified. But it's easy to see how a good person could decide he's a criminal who needs to be brought to heel.

How could Coulson be seen as a criminal, because of the SHIELD/Hydra connection? And Stark did kill Vanko and got away with it along with several AIM operatives in Iron Man 3.

 

[kitik]

And Stark did kill Vanko and got away with it along with several AIM operatives in Iron Man 3.

You mean when he saved the President of the United States?

Iron Man may not directly report to the president or the government or whoever, but he operates with at least a partial blessing from the government. Black Widow still went before Congress after the fall of Shield, and Maria Hill went before congress after starting her new job working for Stark. There may not be an official chain of command, but there is a working relationship.

Meanwhile, Talbot and members of his team all seem to know about Coulson and are now willing to work with him, including passing along both information and assets. Coulson's existence certainly isn't a secret that zero people on earth know about.

On the face of it, it's been assumed that Gonzalez has the backing of the US govt, though without any onscreen proof yet to back up that assumption.


There are a number of possible outcomes here, with varying degrees of destruction and or cooperation involved, but I think my top two perferred outcomes to the current story would be:

-Gonzalez runs the official giant Shield organization, with a friendly working relationship with Coulson who is in charge of a smaller more covert team

or

-when the Avengers take down Baron Strucker in about 5 weeks (or at least we assume they will) we hear EJO say the infamous Hail Hydra line and all hell breaks loose in a battle between the now clearly defined good guys and bad guys


Of course there are many other possible outcomes too. Here's a thought that just crossed my mind: what if GonzalezShield isn't bankrolled by just the US govt, but is also funded and backed by Tony Stark? That could be an interesting conflict down the road.

 

[DWF]

And Stark did kill Vanko and got away with it along with several AIM operatives in Iron Man 3.

You mean when he saved the President of the United States?

Iron Man may not directly report to the president or the government or whoever, but he operates with at least a partial blessing from the government. Black Widow still went before Congress after the fall of Shield, and Maria Hill went before congress after starting her new job working for Stark. There may not be an official chain of command, but there is a working relationship.

Meanwhile, Talbot and members of his team all seem to know about Coulson and are now willing to work with him, including passing along both information and assets. Coulson's existence certainly isn't a secret that zero people on earth know about.

On the face of it, it's been assumed that Gonzalez has the backing of the US govt, though without any onscreen proof yet to back up that assumption.


There are a number of possible outcomes here, with varying degrees of destruction and or cooperation involved, but I think my top two perferred outcomes to the current story would be:

-Gonzalez runs the official giant Shield organization, with a friendly working relationship with Coulson who is in charge of a smaller more covert team

or

-when the Avengers take down Baron Strucker in about 5 weeks (or at least we assume they will) we hear EJO say the infamous Hail Hydra line and all hell breaks loose in a battle between the now clearly defined good guys and bad guys


Of course there are many other possible outcomes too. Here's a thought that just crossed my mind: what if GonzalezShield isn't bankrolled by just the US govt, but is also funded and backed by Tony Stark? That could be an interesting conflict down the road.

Stark pretty much took AIM out by himself and not jsut to save teh president. And no I agree we have no idea who's backing the other SHIELD, which was pretty much my point.

Fury's actions in making Coulson his successor may or may not be legal, but the council knows that Fury is alive and he saved their lives, it's hard to imagine he not having their backing now.

 

[Christopher]

Yep, that's Kirk Acevedo, Agent Tomas Oliver on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Aka Mitch Dolgen on The Walking Dead.

Also Charlie Francis on Fringe, and currently one of the leads of 12 Monkeys as Jose Ramse.

An interesting situation. Gonzales has some really good points about Coulson's actions and their consequences, and about the secrecy of the organization. Didn't Captain America and Black Widow decide, not that long ago, that the culture of secrecy within SHIELD needed to end, that there had to be a new era of transparency? Isn't Coulson just making the same mistakes as the old organization? Gonzales, Weaver, and the rest are justified in their concerns, since they don't want another HYDRA on their hands. We know that Coulson and the gang mean well, but Gonzales and his people had no way of knowing that, so it was reasonable to send someone in to gather intelligence clandestinely, just in case.

This is more a difference of opinion over methods than anything else; both groups very much have the same goals. But they don't trust each other. I hope they can come to some sort of compromise. We all know Coulson means well, but maybe he has gone a little astray.

Meanwhile, Ward is starting to become a more interesting character. On the one hand, he seems so much more self-aware and well-adjusted, at peace with himself and acting compassionately to help Agent 33 overcome her own traumas. But on the other hand, he's doing it by kidnapping and murdering people. That's an intriguing incongruity.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Fury's actions in making Coulson his successor may or may not be legal, but the council knows that Fury is alive and he saved their lives, it's hard to imagine he not having their backing now.

You mean the Council that Pierce killed?

 

[Guy Gardener]

How old is Gonzales?

Ha!

That's great. We should throw him in the brig.

Let's not be hasty, Tomás. We at least owe him an explanation.

We founded S.H.I.E.L.D. ... the real S.H.I.E.L.D. ...

on the belief that leadership should operate with transparency and not from the shadows.

Nick Fury simply kept too many secrets.

Got it. Couldn't agree more, actually.

My memory was trying to convince me that Gonzalez founded the ORIGINAL S.H.I.E.L.D..

Silly brain. Silly, silly brain. Shut the #### up!

The Transparency that these people are talking about is to their minions and underlings. Kinda like how "Profit-sharing" works. The workers are given stock, and therefore a reason to work hard and a way to yell at their boss, who is themlves as well. It is the end of compartmentalization between the "levels" of Agents. Everyone knows the specifics of their missions and why they might probably die as a recourse of any order given... Eventually?

Civilians, politicians, and asshole trillionaires can suck it.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Fury's actions in making Coulson his successor may or may not be legal, but the council knows that Fury is alive and he saved their lives, it's hard to imagine he not having their backing now.

You mean the Council that Pierce killed?

The council members were appointees from Countries, who did what they were told by their prime-ministers and presidents, and got shitcanned if they were off message by a millimetre.

Same as the UN.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. should bring in Jenny Agutter's character, Councillor Hawley. Maybe she can talk some sense into everyone by pointing out that she's alive because of Fury and co.'s maneuvering.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. should bring in Jenny Agutter's character, Councillor Hawley. Maybe she can talk some sense into everyone by pointing out that she's alive because of Fury and co.'s maneuvering.

How would she even know about Fury? Widow took her place before she even reached the Triskelion.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Black Widow stripped the council woman naked and then took all her clothes?

Well, that does take me back to some childhood memories of Jenny.

 

[Sci]

He told Fury no, that because they couldn't afford him. In any event with no SHIELD he's not a consultant now if he ever was one.

Acting privately to protect people from criminals while still acting within the law is a far, far cry from operating a security organization that's answerable to no one as fugitives from the law.

Tony Stark doesn't hide from the law and could be arrested if he broke it. Coulson hides from the law to keep from being arrested for constantly breaking it.

Doesn't make Coulson a bad guy, or unjustified. But it's easy to see how a good person could decide he's a criminal who needs to be brought to heel.

How could Coulson be seen as a criminal, because of the SHIELD/Hydra connection?

No. He's a criminal because SHIELD was dissolved and he's been a fugitive from the U.S. government ever since he left the Hub. He's a fugitive because his SHIELD has no legal right to exist and its agents are wanted fugitives.

It is true that Talbot has been working with him -- but this seems to be because Talbot has decided not to enforce the law due to his recognizing Coulson's utility, not because Coulson's legal status has changed.

And Stark did kill Vanko and got away with it along with several AIM operatives in Iron Man 3.

Homicide is legal when it occurs in the form of self-defense or the defense of others from imminent danger. Tony Stark acts within the law and remains accountable to the United States government.

 

[bbjeg]

Nick Fury is officially dead and the old SHIELD is gone, if the other SHIELD were legal they'd be public about their existance and Coulson would know about them. Of course even in secret Coulson should know about them. SHIELD is now a intelligence organization who seems to operate withnout any real intelligence.

They have a bunch of intel like everything from the SSR, all the data from Garrett's base (including intel on a brain scanning device), they probably took Cybertek's database too either when Skye and May got picked up after the end of season one's finale or downloaded with Skye's Trojan horse (and besides tech, Cybertek had intel on that secret factory in "Eye Spy" as well as what we didn't see), and he has the toolbox. Just because they weren't told about "The Real Shield" (because how else would he know, he doesn't have agents everywhere like the original Shield) doesn't mean they don't have intel.

…
That's also why the One-Shot featuring him was called "The Consultant."

...In any event with no SHIELD he's not a consultant now if he ever was one.

Hill mentioned Stark's "privatization of world security" and his army of lawyers. If he planned to act outside of the law like Coulson, why have so many lawyers?

And Stark did kill Vanko and got away with it along with several AIM operatives in Iron Man 3.

Homicide is legal when it occurs in the form of self-defense or the defense of others from imminent danger. Tony Stark acts within the law and remains accountable to the United States government.

Don't forget, the person Stark helped to kill (with a US Colonel) not only tried to kill him, but he was a fugitive that broke out of prison that he was sent to for trying to kill him a prior time.