Agents of SHIELD - Season 2 Discussion Threads. (Spoilers Likely)

[Sci]

SHIELD had been legally dissolved by the end of Season One. Period.

Which makes claimed that Gonzalez's SHIELD has legal authority sound dubious.

Well, that's the question. If the governments of the world, or at least the U.S. government, decided to re-found SHIELD under Gonzalez's authority, then his is the legitimate SHIELD. If not, his is as much an illegal cabal as Coulson's and no more worthy of legal respect than Coulson's.

The one clue we have, again, is this: It's nearly impossible to run an aircraft carrier without the support of a government.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

The impression I got (based on very little information, so subject to change as time goes on) is that both organizations are taking the same philosophy that a job needs to get done and it doesn't matter that they aren't sanctioned (in other words, neither is sanctioned). Their claim seems to be that they'll do a better job because Coulson has been compromised by an alien serum that affects your brain function. On top of that, they think SHIELD needs more internal transparency among agents rather than being entirely need to know (and their decisions seem to be made by conference).

Of course, the original question is whether this is a coup. Keep in mind that SHIELD was stripped of its lawful authority by world governments, but it didn't necessarily relinquish it. Internally, the organization's leadership passed authority from Fury to Coulson. That authority isn't recognized by anyone besides SHIELD itself. Given that, it's possible to argue that no takeover would be a coup. On the other hand, it appears that Gonzales founded his SHIELD separately for the same reasons as Coulson around the same time. To the extent that any action could be a coup, it makes it less of a coup than if Melinda May had done the same thing.

It's also worth pointing out that, if Coulson has moral authority to lead SHIELD (since no one has legal authority) by virtue of Nick Fury passing the torch, it's not fair to hold that against Gonzales since he doesn't know that. He thinks Nick Fury died. Coulson has the toolbox, but they don't know how he got it.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The one clue we have, again, is this: It's nearly impossible to run an aircraft carrier without the support of a government.

And I would image so would a fleet of quinjets, which doesn't stop HYDRA from doing it.

Not to mention that Coulson did seem to have trouble running a secret base and a few safe houses all over the planet without a government.

Plus funny how nobody bothered to tell well just about anyone that there is a new US run SHIELD running about especially went a US senator was calling for a global manhunt against SHIELD agents.

 

[Guy Gardener]

One aircraft carrier is dick all compared to the resources we suspect that old S.H.I.E.L.D. had.

 

[Sci]

The one clue we have, again, is this: It's nearly impossible to run an aircraft carrier without the support of a government.

And I would image so would a fleet of quinjets, which doesn't stop HYDRA from doing it.

Well, we've seen two Hydra-piloted quinjets. Those would be a challenge to maintain, but not impossible, particularly if Hydra has funding from some of the various front corporations it operates such as Cybertek.

As much of a challenge two quinjets would be, an entire aircraft carrier would be many orders of magnitude harder to run without a government willing to subsidize it all -- and nearly impossible to hide.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Meanwhile, Ward is starting to become a more interesting character. On the one hand, he seems so much more self-aware and well-adjusted, at peace with himself and acting compassionately to help Agent 33 overcome her own traumas. But on the other hand, he's doing it by kidnapping and murdering people. That's an intriguing incongruity.

I'm not convinced that Ward actually cares about Agent 33 as a person. More likely, he's just manipulating her because a loyal face-changing super-spy is handy to have around.

For all we know, he may have had his own reasons for kidnapping and brainwashing Bakshi that have nothing to do with giving Kara closure.

This is pretty much my view of it as well. Ward found her a veritable blank slate and is rebuilding her as a very useful sycophant.

To use an unflattering metaphor, she was like a dog who'd lost her old master and was begging for the affection of a new one, to whom she offered complete loyalty. Which sort of goes back to Ward in the woods.

I wonder how many people knew that Arnim Zola was behind a lot of HYDRA being in SHIELD? Pierce obviously, but did Fury know? Coulson?

Fury would have known by the time Cap and Widow had the chance to tell him in TWS. And Fury and Hill both had opportunities to inform Coulson in the aftermath. Plus, I seem to recall Zola being name-dropped an episode or two after the HYDRA reveal on AoS.

 

[Tom Hendricks]

I wished they showed Hunter as he was making his getaway. They could have had him do a Hunter version of Smeagol, dumb Hunter and even dumber Hunter.

Dumb Hunter - They let us go, it's the only reason for the ease of our escape.
Even Dumber Hunter - Easy? You call that easy?
Dumb Hunter - They're tracking us
Even Dumber Hunter - Not me, Sweetheart
Dumb Hunter - Sigh

 

[The Old Mixer]

I suspect that Hunter is still on the ship, as they made a point of not letting us see him escape.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

As much of a challenge two quinjets would be, an entire aircraft carrier would be many orders of magnitude harder to run without a government willing to subsidize it all -- and nearly impossible to hide.

You underestimate how much crap SHIELD likely has hidden away for a rainy day.

Plus its a show based on a comic book universe not everything is going to be uber realistic.

 

[Sci]

As much of a challenge two quinjets would be, an entire aircraft carrier would be many orders of magnitude harder to run without a government willing to subsidize it all -- and nearly impossible to hide.

You underestimate how much crap SHIELD likely has hidden away for a rainy day.

A Nimitz-class aircraft carrier has a crew complement of over 3,000 people and costs $4.5 billion per year to operate.

It would be very, very difficult for an underground organization to mobilize over 3,000 people and $4.5 billion.

 

[JD]

While I do agree with pretty much everything else you're saying, I don't know if the presence of the aircraft carrier means as much as you think it does. I wouldn't put an organization like S.H.I.E.L.D. having access to an aircraft carrier without government backing totally outside of the realm of possibility in a show like this.

 

[Turtletrekker]

A SHIELD carrier might have tech that keeps it from being detected by conventional tracking. We know they can cloak while in the air, why not some similar measure for the water?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Post modern aircraft carriers are going to be powered by ARC reactors.

But it still costs a packet to keep a few thousand people fed and hydrated for potentially months between restocking their supplies.

 

[DEWLine]

Feeding, hydration, waste management, clothing (and care and maintenance thereof), fuel and parts for the air wing, maintenance on everything from catapults to reactors...

 

[Hartzilla2007]

As much of a challenge two quinjets would be, an entire aircraft carrier would be many orders of magnitude harder to run without a government willing to subsidize it all -- and nearly impossible to hide.

You underestimate how much crap SHIELD likely has hidden away for a rainy day.

A Nimitz-class aircraft carrier has a crew complement of over 3,000 people and costs $4.5 billion per year to operate.

It would be very, very difficult for an underground organization to mobilize over 3,000 people and $4.5 billion.

Considering this show is based on a universe where when Doctor Octopus was impersonating Spider-Man he had enough cash saved up somewhere to afford to convert a former super villain prison into a island fortress, hire an army, build a fleet of freaking spider AT-ATs to the point he could launch a freaking urban assult on a freaking ominous looking dojo in the middle of freaking Manhattan...

I'm a little more forgiving about ridiculous shit showing up in the MCU.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Lets not forget 3 to 6 thousand people expecting to be paid 50 to 200 dollars an hour (depending on their job/title) or a commensurate salary.

Not sure about every country, but Officers (in some countries) have to pay for general services like food, lodging and clothing, unlike the enlisted personnel who get those same services gratis.

An over indulgent Officer might actually lose money if their shipboard expenses exceeds their income.

 

[Christopher]

I'm not convinced that Ward actually cares about Agent 33 as a person. More likely, he's just manipulating her because a loyal face-changing super-spy is handy to have around.

For all we know, he may have had his own reasons for kidnapping and brainwashing Bakshi that have nothing to do with giving Kara closure.

I strongly disagree. The key to Ward's whole character is that he has a strong need to devote himself to someone else. His abusive family tore down his psyche and sense of self-worth, then Garrett exploited that and abused him further to turn him into a fanatical, obedient follower. He has no sense of self-worth except in service to someone else. His whole psychology was built around being loyal to Garrett, and when Garrett died, that left a void that he desperately needs to fill. In the first half of season 2, he was so cooperative because he deeply wanted to prove himself to Skye, to show her that he could be as loyal to her as he'd been to Garrett. But Skye rejected him and almost killed him, and Kara/33 saved his life. So now he's transferred his fanatical loyalty and devotion to her. She's his cause now, just as his previous cause was being there for Skye and his cause before that was serving Garrett.

 

[The Old Mixer]

^I think you may be missing the point...the student has become the master. Now he's found somebody else with a need to devote herself to another, and he's turning her into his own Ward.

 

[Christopher]

^I think you may be missing the point...the student has become the master. Now he's found somebody else with a need to devote herself to another, and he's turning her into his own Ward.

No, I see that point, I just disagree with it. I don't see him as trying to control her. I see the same devotion toward her in his eyes that he used to have toward Skye. Yes, he sees a kindred spirit, but that's exactly why he's trying to save her, not use or manipulate her. His arc this season has been about trying to redeem himself for his failures, except his view of redemption is twisted and murderous. He's trying to do good in his own sick way. And so now he's basically become 33's "sponsor" as he guides her through a recovery process parallel to his own.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I think that Ward really cares about Ward. He cares about Skye only as something that he wants to possess. He cares about Agent 33 as somebody who helps him to build himself up to emulate his old mentor. Following in Garrett's footsteps could be seen as a way of continuing his devotion to Garrett.

I don't see any great desire to do good in him. He's made some noise in that direction, but it's delusional...a way of rationalizing his actions at best.