Agents of SHIELD - Season 2 Discussion Threads. (Spoilers Likely)

[RJDiogenes]

Well, I'm dubious about this "real SHIELD" storyline. It hearkens back to the HYDRA twist, which was my least favorite part of this series-- although they at least don't have to make everyone act out of character for this one. But where has "real SHIELD" been for the past two years? Coulson has been all around the world recruiting disenfranchised agents and he's never heard of it? Talbot was all hyped up on hunting SHIELD and he's never heard of it? Fury is out there somewhere with his own SHIELD resources and he's never heard of it? That seems unlikely. And what have they been up to all this time? Battling HYDRA? Where and how? Even the HYDRA minions we've seen on the show have given no clue that "real SHIELD" exists. So what have they been doing? If there had been a "real SHIELD" TV series this past two years, what would the stories have been?

Talbot is turning into a real likeable character. I was impressed by him ordering that Coulson be contacted as soon as he figured out the mask, and he made a decent attempt to locate the intruder. His poor wife, though. She reminded me of Mrs. Bellows.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Real SHIELD is a coup d'état. The people sitting around the table under Adama's leadership admitted it. They are taking over SHIELD on their own authority, because they have judged Colson's interest in aliens to be contrary to human interest.

 

[DWF]

Acting privately to protect people from criminals while still acting within the law is a far, far cry from operating a security organization that's answerable to no one as fugitives from the law.

Tony Stark doesn't hide from the law and could be arrested if he broke it. Coulson hides from the law to keep from being arrested for constantly breaking it.

Doesn't make Coulson a bad guy, or unjustified. But it's easy to see how a good person could decide he's a criminal who needs to be brought to heel.

How could Coulson be seen as a criminal, because of the SHIELD/Hydra connection?

No. He's a criminal because SHIELD was dissolved and he's been a fugitive from the U.S. government ever since he left the Hub. He's a fugitive because his SHIELD has no legal right to exist and its agents are wanted fugitives.

It is true that Talbot has been working with him -- but this seems to be because Talbot has decided not to enforce the law due to his recognizing Coulson's utility, not because Coulson's legal status has changed.

And Stark did kill Vanko and got away with it along with several AIM operatives in Iron Man 3.

Homicide is legal when it occurs in the form of self-defense or the defense of others from imminent danger. Tony Stark acts within the law and remains accountable to the United States government.

Stark made himself a target he wasn't attacked until then and really he's not a part of any law enforcement agency.

 

[Tom Hendricks]

So I would imagine that since we saw Nick Fury in the Age of Ultron trailer, that his "return" in AoU must have an impact on AoS. That this whole "Real SHIELD" story line is in play because of Fury's return in AoU. That will be the tie-in between the movie and the TV show.

 

[Sci]

Real SHIELD is a coup d'état. The people sitting around the table under Adama's leadership admitted it. They are taking over SHIELD on their own authority, because they have judged Colson's interest in aliens to be contrary to human interest.

A coup d'état implies that Gonzalez, Weaver, and the others were originally under Coulson's leadership and then decided to rebel against it. This does not seem to be the case. The implication seems to be that this is a separate organization comprised of former Fury!SHILED agents, who have decided to re-form SHIELD and view their re-created organization as the only legitimate continuation of the original SHIELD organization.

The question is, are they acting in defiance of legal authority like Coulson, or do they have the legal of one or more democratic governments for whom they work like the original SHIELD? We do not know this answer definitively yet -- although, again, it is next to impossible to run an aircraft carrier without a government's support.

How could Coulson be seen as a criminal, because of the SHIELD/Hydra connection?

No. He's a criminal because SHIELD was dissolved and he's been a fugitive from the U.S. government ever since he left the Hub. He's a fugitive because his SHIELD has no legal right to exist and its agents are wanted fugitives.

It is true that Talbot has been working with him -- but this seems to be because Talbot has decided not to enforce the law due to his recognizing Coulson's utility, not because Coulson's legal status has changed.

And Stark did kill Vanko and got away with it along with several AIM operatives in Iron Man 3.

Homicide is legal when it occurs in the form of self-defense or the defense of others from imminent danger. Tony Stark acts within the law and remains accountable to the United States government.

Stark made himself a target

Shockingly, "he had it coming" is not a legal defense for attempted murder. Stark had every right to defend himself from attempted murderers.

really he's not a part of any law enforcement agency.

True. But he still acts within the law and remains subject to arrest if he breaks it. He is not a fugitive from the law like Coulson.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Real SHIELD is a coup d'état. The people sitting around the table under Adama's leadership admitted it. They are taking over SHIELD on their own authority, because they have judged Colson's interest in aliens to be contrary to human interest.

A coup d'état implies that Gonzalez, Weaver, and the others were originally under Coulson's leadership and then decided to rebel against it. This does not seem to be the case.

On the contrary, it does in fact seem to be the case. Remember, Fury gave Coulson SHIELD (OldSHIELD) leadership credentials in "Beginning of the End." This RealSHIELD is a new organization that doesn't recognize those credentials, despite them being authentic, despite therefore it being evident to all, in both RealSHIELD and OldSHIELD, that Coulson came by those credentials with Fury's approval (more on that below in the last two paragraphs), and despite the credentials not having been revoked by whatever agency has authority over OldSHIELD, i.e. the World Security Council. The assets RealSHIELD were using were OldSHIELD assets—they said that, too—but these assets probably weren't ever folded back into the OldSHIELD organization in the aftermath of the Hydra insurrection we saw in The Winter Soldier.

Most likely, RealSHIELD decided not to report back into the OldSHIELD chain of command when they saw that Coulson was in charge of it. They still think that Fury is dead (and therefore also that Fury with full authority designated Coulson as his successor before his death), and they stopped trusting Couslon as soon as Fury injected him with alien DNA, as they put it. They had really stopped trusting Fury even before they believed he was killed, with his interest in alien tech and his reliance on compartmentalization.

If the issue was that Coulson came by the OldSHIELD leadership credentials inappropriately, or if those credentials had been revoked, then there would be no "decision," as Gonzales et al. put it, for them to make. It would be case closed, Coulson doesn't have the authority to lead SHIELD. The problem is, therefore, that Coulson does have that authority, and the leadership of RealSHIELD has come to the decision not to recognize those credentials on their own authority, or at least that's how they all, Bobbi included, related the situation to Lance.

As for how this might or might not make sense in the real world, I'm not going by what I think about that, because it clearly doesn't make sense in the real world; it never did from the get-go. I'm only going by what they've actually said in the episodes, and what I believe logically follows within the premise as it's been laid out in the show. Based on what we've been told so far, in this universe, Fury did have the authority to select his own successor. Arguably, Fury's philosophy of compartmentalization, which RealSHIELD has claimed that they disagree with in their pitch that they intend RealSHIELD to be transparent, led to the HYDRA crisis by allowing HYDRA to spread unchecked throughout SHIELD.

 

[Sci]

Real SHIELD is a coup d'état. The people sitting around the table under Adama's leadership admitted it. They are taking over SHIELD on their own authority, because they have judged Colson's interest in aliens to be contrary to human interest.

A coup d'état implies that Gonzalez, Weaver, and the others were originally under Coulson's leadership and then decided to rebel against it. This does not seem to be the case.

On the contrary, it does in fact seem to be the case. Remember, Fury gave Coulson SHIELD (OldSHIELD) leadership credentials in "Beginning of the End." This RealSHIELD is a new organization that doesn't recognize those credentials, despite them being authentic, despite therefore it being evident to all, in both RealSHIELD and OldSHIELD, that Coulson came by those credentials with Fury's approval (more on that below in the last two paragraphs), and despite the credentials not having been revoked by whatever agency has authority over OldSHIELD, i.e. the World Security Council. The assets RealSHIELD were using were OldSHIELD assets—they said that, too—but these assets probably weren't ever folded back into the OldSHIELD organization in the aftermath of the Hydra insurrection we saw in The Winter Soldier.

Most likely, RealSHIELD decided not to report back into the OldSHIELD chain of command when they saw that Coulson was in charge of it. They still think that Fury is dead (and therefore also that Fury with full authority designated Coulson as his successor before his death), and they stopped trusting Couslon as soon as Fury injected him with alien DNA, as they put it. They had really stopped trusting Fury even before they believed he was killed, with his interest in alien tech and his reliance on compartmentalization.

If the issue was that Coulson came by the OldSHIELD leadership credentials inappropriately, or if those credentials had been revoked, then there would be no "decision," as Gonzales et al. put it, for them to make. It would be case closed, Coulson doesn't have the authority to lead SHIELD. The problem is, therefore, that Coulson does have that authority, and the leadership of RealSHIELD has come to the decision not to recognize those credentials on their own authority, or at least that's how they all, Bobbi included, related the situation to Lance.

Pure nonsense.

By the time of the S1 finale, SHIELD has legally been dissolved. There was no SHIELD to lead, no valid credentials to give to Coulson. Fury did not appoint Coulson Director of the Strategic Homeland Intervention Enforcement Logistics Division, because the Strategic Homeland Intervention Enforcement Logistics Division no longer existed. SHIELD was a legal entity whose existence had been revoked.

Even if it were publicly known that Fury was still alive at the time, he would still not have been the Director of SHIELD because the Directorship of SHIELD would itself no longer exist.

And the idea that the SHIELD Director has any legal capacity to appoint his/her successor is absurd. Not only is that not how it works in the real world -- the U.S. President appoints the Director of the FBI and CIA; the U.K. Prime Minister appoints the Director-General of MI-5 and the Chief of MI-6; the German Federal Chancellor appoints the President of the BND; the Indian Prime Minister appoints the Director of the Research and Analysis Wing; etc. -- but the MCU itself arguably contradicts the idea. In the deleted scenes for The Avengers, we saw that the World Security Council is the organization that decides who gets to be Director of SHIELD.

Bottom line: Fury did not appoint Coulson Director of SHIELD in any legal sense. He appointed Coulson leader of an illegal cabal that would use SHIELD's name, former agents, and assets to engage in vigilante operations against Hydra and other extranormal threats, in the hopes that by operating by a different ethos, the cabal could then be made legitimate again. But Coulson has never had any actual legal authority -- which means that there's no evidence whatsoever that Gonzalez's organization was ever under Coulson's leadership in the first place.

 

[Greg Cox]

Meanwhile, Ward is starting to become a more interesting character. On the one hand, he seems so much more self-aware and well-adjusted, at peace with himself and acting compassionately to help Agent 33 overcome her own traumas. But on the other hand, he's doing it by kidnapping and murdering people. That's an intriguing incongruity.

I'm not convinced that Ward actually cares about Agent 33 as a person. More likely, he's just manipulating her because a loyal face-changing super-spy is handy to have around.

For all we know, he may have had his own reasons for kidnapping and brainwashing Bakshi that have nothing to do with giving Kara closure.

And does anybody really think that Ward is over his obsession with Skye? Please!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

By the time of the S1 finale, SHIELD has legally been dissolved.

If it ever comes out that the World Security Council actually revoked Fury's authority, or if it was said that they did already and I'm not remembering it, I'll take some or all of what I said back. Based on what happened in The Winter Soldier, it's not only possible but probable that they know Fury's alive, as for one thing he was instrumental in the operation that saved Hawley (Jenny Agutter).

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Oh, I think Cap was pretty clear where he stood. He thinks SHIELD is irredeemable in any form and needed to be torn down completely, not rebuilt or redeemed.

And he has the legal authority to determine how exactly?

And I'm not going to automatically assume the other SHIELD has legal authority to do anything just becuase they have an aircraft carrier and some US flags seeing as HYDRA has all sorts of fancy crap and their a terrorist organization.

 

[kitik]

The notion that Coulson has some sort of authentic credentials or whatever is just plain wrong. He does not report to anybody. He doesn't report to the World Security Council. He doesn't report to the US government. He doesn't report to Stark. Heck, he doesn't even report to Nick Fury.

Fury simply gave him a bag of toys and said "here, do some good work with these".

 

[Sci]

By the time of the S1 finale, SHIELD has legally been dissolved.

If it ever comes out that the World Security Council actually revoked Fury's authority, or if it was said that they did already and I'm not remembering it, I'll take some or all of what I said back.

From 1.18, "Providence:"

FITZ: Ramp needs to be repaired by the end of the day. Coulson's orders.

SIMMONS: What? Are they even proper orders? S.H.I.E.L.D.'s been destroyed, Fury's dead. Aren't they just requests?

FITZ: Well, either way, I'm in the middle of it. Stator, please.

SIMMONS: Well, he's certainly not taking orders from anyone. We have no jurisdiction now that SHIELD's been labeled a terrorist organization.

FITZ: Powers that be will sort it out. All we can do is fix one thing at a time, starting with this servo drive.

From 1.20, "Nothing Personal:"

COULSON: We'll need a base of operations, weapons, tactical backup. Who do you have working for you?

HILL: Okay, wait, wait. Hold on, Coulson. There is no more backup. No more hidden bunkers.

COULSON: Oh, come on. I know Fury has others.

HILL: There's no Fury. We're not bringing the band back together again, Coulson. It's over. There is no S.H.I.E.L.D. anymore.

COULSON: Well... not officially.

HILL: Look, I get it, okay? You have to take Ward and Garrett down. But don't act like it's some officially sanctioned mission. It's a personal vendetta, and when it's done, you should walk. Let your people go their separate ways.

From 2.01, "Shadows:"

TALBOT: They're fugitives, and they deserve to be punished.
We witnessed the single greatest intelligence collapse in recorded history, George. We have a duty to the American people to hunt down those responsible. So, no, I don't sleep most nights.

GEORGE: General Talbot, you said you have S.H.I.E.L.D. personnel and weaponry locked in a secure facility, so is it fair to say that S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Hydra terrorists who poisoned its ranks have been defeated?

TALBOT: The corrupt institution has been dismantled, yes.

 

[Marsden]

I wonder how many people knew that Arnim Zola was behind a lot of HYDRA being in SHIELD? Pierce obviously, but did Fury know? Coulson? Does any of Gonzalez! SHIELD know? I wonder if any of them are still HYDRA?

And I didn't think Hartley was SHIELD, I thought she was a mercenary, like Hunter, but Gonzalez said that she saved his life during the HYDRA breakout.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Well, I guess we'll see, won't we.

That dialog proves nothing, Sci, except that people below a certain level in the food chain don't know what's going on.

The notion that Coulson has some sort of authentic credentials or whatever is just plain wrong. He does not report to anybody. He doesn't report to the World Security Council. He doesn't report to the US government. He doesn't report to Stark. Heck, he doesn't even report to Nick Fury.

Fury simply gave him a bag of toys and said "here, do some good work with these".

All we know is that we haven't seen Coulson talking to the WTC. What we have seen is Coulson interfacing with the "toys" that Fury gave him supposedly designating him leader of SHIELD, but we can't really tell what he's doing. Presumably what Fury gave Coulson included primarily a part of SHIELD that Fury believed was untouched by HYDRA.

 

[kitik]

All we know is that we haven't seen Coulson talking to the WTC.

You're right, all we know is what we've seen, and we haven't seen jack squat to indicate that Coulson's Shield is in any way official.

What we have seen is Coulson interfacing with the "toys" that Fury gave him supposedly designating him leader of SHIELD, but we can't really tell what he's doing.

???
Having access to toys does not determine whether or not someone is the official leader of SHIELD. Toys to not make one a leader.


But once again, all we know is what we see (and what we're told), and what we have seen is that Coulson's Shield has no official backing. And while it's possible, I kind of doubt we'll get a twist reveal where Coulson says to Gonzales "guess what, I've been in contact with and had the backing of the World Security Council the whole time".

 

[CorporalCaptain]

All we know is that we haven't seen Coulson talking to the WTC.

You're right, all we know is what we've seen, and we haven't seen jack squat to indicate that Coulson's Shield is in any way official.

What we have seen is Coulson interfacing with the "toys" that Fury gave him supposedly designating him leader of SHIELD, but we can't really tell what he's doing.

???
Having access to toys does not determine whether or not someone is the official leader of SHIELD. Toys to not make one a leader.


But once again, all we know is what we see (and what we're told), and what we have seen is that Coulson's Shield has no official backing. And while it's possible, I kind of doubt we'll get a twist reveal where Coulson says to Gonzales "guess what, I've been in contact with and had the backing of the World Security Council the whole time".

If that were so, then it doesn't make sense that the conversation went down the way it did when Gonzales et al. were trying to bring Lance aboard with them. They referred to making a decision not to follow Coulson, and they repeatedly said that that decision didn't come easy to them. If Coulson lacked authority whereas they had authority, there would have been no decision to make.

Anyway, as I said, we'll see, won't we.

 

[DWF]

I wonder how many people knew that Arnim Zola was behind a lot of HYDRA being in SHIELD? Pierce obviously, but did Fury know? Coulson? Does any of Gonzalez! SHIELD know? I wonder if any of them are still HYDRA?

And I didn't think Hartley was SHIELD, I thought she was a mercenary, like Hunter, but Gonzalez said that she saved his life during the HYDRA breakout.

With the SHEILD files released oline it's a good bet that everybody kows about Zola's involvement with SHIELD and Hydra..

 

[Sci]

That dialog proves nothing, Sci, except that people below a certain level in the food chain don't know what's going on.

Pure nonsense. Acts of legislation are public information; if Simmons says that SHIELD no longer had legal jurisdiction as of "Providence," then SHIELD no longer had legal jurisdiction. Talbot is a flag office of the United States Air Force; he's been tasked with seizing SHIELD bases and taking its agents into custody. Maria Hill was Fury's second-in-command -- and she explicitly says that SHIELD does not exist anymore.

SHIELD had been legally dissolved by the end of Season One. Period.

The notion that Coulson has some sort of authentic credentials or whatever is just plain wrong. He does not report to anybody. He doesn't report to the World Security Council. He doesn't report to the US government. He doesn't report to Stark. Heck, he doesn't even report to Nick Fury.

Fury simply gave him a bag of toys and said "here, do some good work with these".

All we know is that we haven't seen Coulson talking to the WTC.

The World Trade Center?

 

[DEWLine]

I still want a better sense of what went into the infodump that Fury and Romanova put on the Net.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

SHIELD had been legally dissolved by the end of Season One. Period.

Which makes claimed that Gonzalez's SHIELD has legal authority sound dubious.

Honestly at this point it just looks like two groups of SHIELD remnants fighting over who gets to be in charge with neither one having backing from any government.