Agents of SHIELD - Season 2 Discussion Threads. (Spoilers Likely)

[The Old Mixer]

Or EJO's character might be Stark's man...an attempted hostile takeover of the remains of SHIELD.

Bobbi and Mack might also be working for Talbot...putting national loyalty over loyalty to SHIELD. But that seems a bit less interesting than the other possibilities.

We shall see.

 

[DEWLine]

Alternatively, Coulson and Fury decide that Gonzalez ought to be the next Director if SHIELD gets its official hunting license back. Possibly as a condition that they know Washington will accept without qualms or vice versa?

 

[Gryffindorian]

That reminds me, last time I saw Ward, he was escaping with Raina, who asked him, "What do we do now?" to which he replied, "We survive." So where is Ward?

That was 33, not Raina. Sorry.

Oh, right. I had forgotten that Agent 33 mimicked May's appearance.

 

[Sci]

I still have a bit of cognitive dissonance over seeing a sheik in full Arab garb as a member of an organization that started out as Nazis. I suppose this goes back to my general skepticism over the idea that a Nazi cult could ever evolve into one that isn't racist.

I find that to be a strange thing to say, as the Nazis and many Arabs were good friends and allies against the French and especially the British in places like Iraq and Syria. In fact some of the area's facist parties can trace it back to that association.

That's a valid point, but I think it overlooks the nature of the alliance. The Nazis were willing to ally with Arabs or with the Japanese, but those alliances didn't change the fact that the Nazis believed in "Aryans" as the "master race." Had the Nazis defeated the Allies and gained control of Europe, their erstwhile allies would almost certainly have become some of their next targets.

So -- setting aside for the moment the question of whether Hydra's ideology is still a form of Nazism -- yeah, I can imagine a Nazis being allies with an Arab leader: it happened in real life. I have a harder time imagining them letting a sheik join the club.

I still have a bit of cognitive dissonance over seeing a sheik in full Arab garb as a member of an organization that started out as Nazis. I suppose this goes back to my general skepticism over the idea that a Nazi cult could ever evolve into one that isn't racist.

The way I tend to think of it is that Schmidt's attitude towards the Nazi ideal of a superior human is similar to that of Shaw's* from X-men First Class. Specifically that it's pathetically narrow minded and superficial. Indeed I recall Red Skull mentioning in TFA that his quasi-exile was due to his appearance no longer fitting in with the Nazi ideal.
Also keep in mind that this version of Hydra grew from seeds planted by Zola in the late 40's/early 50's. Zola was nothing if not pragmatic.

I mean, I can understand the justification in-universe. Ultimately, what I am finding as I watch the show and the movies is that the idea that an organization that began life as a Nazi cult would plausibly ever move beyond the racism that lies at the heart of Nazi ideology, is one that I just have trouble seeing as believable.

I'm about to ramble on a bit about the real beliefs of Nazism and how they might apply to Hydra. Bear with me.

Stepping into reality for a moment, it seems to me that Nazi ideology ultimately boils down to two things: Führerprinzip (authoritarian system of obedience to the leader) and Aryanism (belief in Germanic peoples as the "master race" combined with racism/anti-Semitism). This is, of course, an oversimplification, but I think these principles are the core of Nazism.

Stepping back in-universe to analyze whether or not the fictional Hydra basically adheres to these ideas... Hydra in Captain America: The First Avenger clearly still subscribes to Führerprinzip -- they've just substituted one führer for another, swapping the Red Skull in the place of Hitler. At the time of Captain America: The Winter Soldier and Agents of SHIELD, I get the impression that for the modern Hydra, this has not changed. Alexander Pierce appears to have been "führer" of Hydra during their 2014 coup attempt, and Wolfgang von Strucker appears to be the "führer" after Pierce's death.

Are they still believers in Aryanism? Arguably. After all, the Red Skull was obsessed with Nordic mythology and believed he could find a way to harness of the power of the Norse gods... and this led him to discover exactly that, in the form of the Tesseract and his apparently discovery of the historical reality of the Asgardians. So clearly, Hydra is still very influenced by Aryanism.

Do they believe in "Aryans" as the "master race?" This, I'm less clear on. Aryanism is ultimately just a particular variation on Fascism's obsession with the idea of elevating one nation above others in order to justify national domination and aggression and plunder against outsiders. In the course of CA:TFA, it's clear that Schmidt is willing to kill huge numbers of Germans in his attempt to usurp Hitler, so it may appear that Schmidt -- and, by extension, Hydra -- no longer view the German nation as venerable above all others. However, Schmidt talks in CA:TFA about the idea that he and Steve Rogers have both become superior beings by their use of the super-soldier serum. And that idea, that obsession with the idea of becoming a superior being through technological means, still seems to permeate Hydra -- both John Garrett and Whitehall/Reinhardt were out to achieve that same goal. Hell, even Zola might be argued to have tried the same by transferring his consciousness onto a computer.

So I do find myself playing with the idea of Hydra as replicating real-life Fascism's tendency towards nationalism in a more fantastical form -- rather than venerating a nation, they venerate the idea of a fantastical superior race who will come about through technological/scientific means... presumably, themselves.

So I can sort-of buy the idea of Hydra abandoning Aryanism/German nationalism. But Nazism and Aryanism come hand-in-hand with white supremacy and anti-Semitism. These hatreds burn at the core of the Nazi belief system. And if we're talking about characters that are emotionally realistic... I can buy the idea of them transferring their "führer" worship from Hitler to Schmidt to Pierce to von Strucker. And I can buy the idea that they start believing in a fantastic "master race to come" created through artificial means rather than in the Germans as master race. But I'm really not sure I buy the idea that an organization that grows out of a Nazi cult can ever really abandon white supremacy and anti-Semitism, or attract members who don't believe in those things.

On the other hand -- hey, if they can replace Hitler as the focus of their worship and start imagining fantastical master-races-to-come that would be superior to Germans, maybe that can eventually lead to a sort of equal-opportunity fascist. Especially if the second or third generation of Hydra followers was mostly comprised of Americans rather than Germans, I can see them maybe keeping German nationalism for a time before letting go of that in favor of fantastical master-races-to-come. In-universe, I suppose one could go with the idea that that would eventually lead to a sort of anti-racist fascism--a set of Hydra believers who want to end democracy, establish a worldwide totalitarian dictatorship under Hydra rule, and have Hydra's leaders become a fantastical "superior beings" through means such as the super-soldier serum.

But -- I don't know. In my culture, the Americans I view as being most likely to be attracted to fascism are usually themselves racists--followers of the Ku Klux Klan, abusive members of police and security agencies (hello, Ferguson), etc. Even in America, I think the fascistic impulse is inextricably linked to racism. So that makes it harder for me to buy the vision of a non-racist Hydra.

I still have a bit of cognitive dissonance over seeing a sheik in full Arab garb as a member of an organization that started out as Nazis. I suppose this goes back to my general skepticism over the idea that a Nazi cult could ever evolve into one that isn't racist.

But is Hydra actually a Nazi orginization? I'd been kind of assuming they were a separate group that was simply working with the Nazi's during WWII. According to Wikipedia, the comics' orginization goes all the way back to Ancient Egypt, and the Renaissance. Is there anything to rule out that kind of history in the MCU?

Yeah. Hydra is explicitly established in Captain America: The First Avenger to have been founded by Johann Schmidt/the Red Skull, and to have been Hitler's advanced weapons research division. The MCU tie-in comic Captain America: First Vengeance goes into more detail: In the MCU, Hydra was founded by Schmidt as part of the S.S.

Schmidt had tried to convince Ernest Kaufmann, the commander of the S.A.'s special weapons division, to let him join, but Kaufmann had refused. Schmidt had later become an officer of the S.S. During the Night of Long Knives (the real-life purge of the Nazi Party committed in June 1934 against the S.A. and the "liberal" factions of the party), Schmidt killed Kaufmann and all of his men save Armin Zola, and seized control of the assets of Kaufmann's division. He then created Hydra as a division of the S.S.

And even if they did start out as Nazis during WWII, I think at this point it's pretty clear they've moved beyond Nazism to their own separate thing.

Well, yeah -- what I'm saying is, I'm not sure how plausible I find it.

There's not a shred of evidence in the movie universe that it existed before then -- and that ancient origin for HYDRA in the comics is a relatively recent retcon, if I'm not mistaken. (Seriously, though, why Ancient Egypt? It's named for a monster from Greek mythology!)

It's a recent recon, yeah -- I think Secret Warriors #1? 2009 or thereabouts. I suppose some writers think an ancient conspiracy is just more dramatic.

And even if they did start out as Nazis during WWII, I think at this point it's pretty clear they've moved beyond Nazism to their own separate thing.

Well, there's the Ward/Skye argument all over again. Ward likes to think that HYDRA is untainted by its Nazi origins, but Skye rejected the idea that such a thing was possible.

Then again, wasn't Volkswagen created by the Nazis?

Well, the Volkswagen is a tool, an object -- it's not an organization with a fascistic ideology. Essentially, the question is, can a Nazi organization lose its racism while keeping its authoritarian nature? I'm not sure it can, because in Nazism, the racist beliefs are intimately tied to the justification for authoritarianism.

The MCU version of Strucker is purely a contemporary figure, a former SHIELD agent recruited into HYDRA. He wasn't around during WWII like his comics namesake.

By the way, I hadn't realized that his right-hand man Dr. List, who appeared in this episode, was also in the Winter Soldier tag scene. That's one more movie character who's appeared in the show. Although the actor, Henry Goodman, was uncredited in TWS.

Interesting catch -- I missed that! Thanks for pointing it out.

Maybe, but Ward never had any particular interest in HYDRA, and now seems more interested in getting back into SHIELD's good graces.

I don't think that's an accurate characterization of Ward. Ward was more about loyalty to John Garrett than to Hydra as an organization, sure -- but he was still loyal to Hydra, still knew the Hydra leadership, and still willing to kill for Hydra. That ain't nothin'. And I for one am not convinced Ward is out to get into SHIELD's good graces. I think he has something else up his sleeve.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Are they still believers in Aryanism? Arguably. After all, the Red Skull was obsessed with Nordic mythology and believed he could find a way to harness of the power of the Norse gods... and this led him to discover exactly that, in the form of the Tesseract and his apparently discovery of the historical reality of the Asgardians. So clearly, Hydra is still very influenced by Aryanism.

Of course Whitehall was also screwing around with an alien object found in China around that time so it was probably more legends about occult objects reported to have freaky powers that would help their world domination plans than influence by Aryanism.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Maybe, but Ward never had any particular interest in HYDRA, and now seems more interested in getting back into SHIELD's good graces.

I don't think that's an accurate characterization of Ward. Ward was more about loyalty to John Garrett than to Hydra as an organization, sure -- but he was still loyal to Hydra, still knew the Hydra leadership, and still willing to kill for Hydra. That ain't nothin'. And I for one am not convinced Ward is out to get into SHIELD's good graces. I think he has something else up his sleeve.

Well, that's true. I suppose if he thinks taking a leadership role in HYDRA serves his goals, he will do it.

 

[Reverend]

I mean, I can understand the justification in-universe. Ultimately, what I am finding as I watch the show and the movies is that the idea that an organization that began life as a Nazi cult would plausibly ever move beyond the racism that lies at the heart of Nazi ideology, is one that I just have trouble seeing as believable.

The way I read it is that the Nazi ideal and the Hydra ideal are similar but based on totally different criteria. Hydra seems to go for an almost Darwinian approach of who gets to rule over everyone else. Probably (and I'm just guessing) based on the notion that the ability and will to dominate and acquire that much power is what makes one superior. Less divine right so much as divine acquisition. In a sense you could almost call it a Promethean cult.

In simple terms, superiority is not innate, it's acquired. Hence all the mad scientist stuff. It's self improvement and a meritocratic ideology taken to a totalitarian extreme.

It's also worth keeping in mind that as we saw with Garret and Ward, not everyone in Hydra are true believers. Indeed, I doubt every member of the Nazi party was a true believer. Like any power structure (political, religious, you name it), there are those who will simply use it as a means of self advancement.

When you get right down to it, any good villain needs to have a believable goal and motivation. In the case of Hydra it's central tenant as stated by Zola is "humanity cannot be trusted with it's own freedom." However twisted, people like Schmit, Zola and Pierce believed that what they did was for the good of the species as a whole. None of that requires any direct association with the Nazis, even if that's where they sort of came from.

Indeed, one could make the comparison between that and how both Christianity and Islam are essentially Jewish cults that broke away to do their own thing...and we all know how well those all get along with each other.

 

[Sci]

Indeed, one could make the comparison between that and how both Christianity and Islam are essentially Jewish cults that broke away to do their own thing...and we all know how well those all get along with each other.

Yeah -- but Christians and Muslims still believe in the same God as do Jews, and generally accept the same basic teachings about that God and His relationship to the early patriarchs (Abraham, Jacob, etc.). There are certainly major, major differences, but there's a core that all three are built on.

Essentially, I just struggle to find the idea that Hydra's ideology would disregard Nazi racism plausible. I can buy the idea of Hydra ideology going in a different direction from Nazism, but I suspect that racism and anti-Semitism would end up being too much of a core, too intimately linked to the ideological justification for authoritarianism, to be disregarded. Hydra might go its own way, but I suspect that a more realistic depiction of them would have them sharing racism as a core that both "Hydra-ism" and Nazism are built on.

 

[Marsden]

Well, that's true. I suppose if he thinks taking a leadership role in HYDRA serves his goals, he will do it.

That's what I think as well. He could try to climb to the top of HYDRA so it can impress Skye somehow, maybe intending to betray them but still as the new leader.

One think all of those leaders obviously had was a lot of wealth. Maybe they still have the Nazi ideology of "this group is the best and others are inferior" but the superior isn't Ayran but "weathy" and those others can serve their goals. So it's not an abandonment but a shift. An upper class rather than race, which is really barely different. "Race" is an artificial classification.

I wonder with that many of HYDRA's leaders gone and Toby Jones making a previous tv appearance if we might see the Arnim Zola body up and in action right on SHIELD?

 

[Reverend]

Indeed, one could make the comparison between that and how both Christianity and Islam are essentially Jewish cults that broke away to do their own thing...and we all know how well those all get along with each other.

Yeah -- but Christians and Muslims still believe in the same God as do Jews, and generally accept the same basic teachings about that God and His relationship to the early patriarchs (Abraham, Jacob, etc.). There are certainly major, major differences, but there's a core that all three are built on.

And yet if you said to a devout Muslim or Christian "you're just a Jewish fanatic" they'd probably look at you funny, react with confusion if not feel downright insulted. Just as Ward was when Skye made the Nazi accusation. That's the comparison I was drawing; it's about perception. They're not a Nazi cult precisely because they don't perceive themselves to be. The distinction may not matter to an outsider, but it matters to them.

Essentially, I just struggle to find the idea that Hydra's ideology would disregard Nazi racism plausible. I can buy the idea of Hydra ideology going in a different direction from Nazism, but I suspect that racism and anti-Semitism would end up being too much of a core, too intimately linked to the ideological justification for authoritarianism, to be disregarded. Hydra might go its own way, but I suspect that a more realistic depiction of them would have them sharing racism as a core that both "Hydra-ism" and Nazism are built on.

Again though, Hydra was founded on a *rejection* of Nazism in favour of a pursuit of power through science at any cost. It shouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine they rejected racism and by extension anti-Semitism as a petty, small minded view of what it truly is to be superior. Basically they were playing for much bigger stakes, seeking not some childish "Aryan ideal" but the power of the gods themselves. Besides, it's not like someone with Red Skull's condition could seriously claim skin colour as being remotely relevant.

*Maybe* in the beginning, during the days when Zola was rebuilding Hydra within Shield some of those prejudices were still knocking around, but 70 years is a long time and the organization grew on it's own and changed beyond Zola's control. Even that scenario seems unlikely to me. Zola never struck me as an ideologist. He was more of a cold logician who never showed any interest in the ethnic dogma. I honestly can't see him caring about a person's genetic ancestry beyond how it can be directly applied to his designs.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

Well, the Volkswagen is a tool, an object -- it's not an organization with a fascistic ideology. Essentially, the question is, can a Nazi organization lose its racism while keeping its authoritarian nature? I'm not sure it can, because in Nazism, the racist beliefs are intimately tied to the justification for authoritarianism...

Interesting conversation, and I can agree with much of what you say.

Volkswagen isn't/wasn't a tool; it is a corporation. Legally, a person with an indefinite lifespan. Founded in 1937, the iconic Beatle was spawned from a conversation between the founder and Hitler. More to the point, it and many other German corporations at the time supported the Nazi party financially, and benefited from slave labour during the war.


Times change, and so does corporate culture. The current corporation, I am sure, supports democracy and human rights. However, any corporation will support any political regime that will maximize its profits.

 

[Guy Gardener]

In the comics Hydra predates the Nazi party by 20,000 years.

That hasn't been said so of Cinematic Hydra, but it is possibly a fact that might come to light later.

 

[Nerys Myk]

In the comics Hydra predates the Nazi party by 20,000 years.

That hasn't been said so of Cinematic Hydra, but it is possibly a fact that might come to light later.

God, I hope not.

 

[Sci]

One think all of those leaders obviously had was a lot of wealth. Maybe they still have the Nazi ideology of "this group is the best and others are inferior" but the superior isn't Ayran but "weathy" and those others can serve their goals. So it's not an abandonment but a shift. An upper class rather than race, which is really barely different. "Race" is an artificial classification.

I take it as a given that Hydra retains a "this group is superior and others are inferior" mentality, yeah. Your idea that maybe Hydra represents a commitment to classism rather than racism is interesting, and I admit a certain attraction to the idea as a result of my own left-wing politics. But I'm not sure I can get on board with it, for reasons I'll explain below.

I wonder with that many of HYDRA's leaders gone and Toby Jones making a previous tv appearance if we might see the Arnim Zola body up and in action right on SHIELD?

I hope so! Toby Jones is awesome.

Essentially, I just struggle to find the idea that Hydra's ideology would disregard Nazi racism plausible. I can buy the idea of Hydra ideology going in a different direction from Nazism, but I suspect that racism and anti-Semitism would end up being too much of a core, too intimately linked to the ideological justification for authoritarianism, to be disregarded. Hydra might go its own way, but I suspect that a more realistic depiction of them would have them sharing racism as a core that both "Hydra-ism" and Nazism are built on.

Again though, Hydra was founded on a *rejection* of Nazism in favour of a pursuit of power through science at any cost.

Was it? Or was it founded as a variation on Nazism that worshiped the Red Skull instead of Hitler? I mean, in CA:TWS, we see a flashback to WW2-era propaganda posters that depict the Red Skull and the Hydra logo, with the legend leading, "Lead Us, Führer! We Will Follow!" Throughout CA:TFA and in the WW2-era flashback scenes on Agents of SHIELD, we see Hydra leaders wearing Nazi uniforms. And of course, the even use a modified Nazi salute -- "Hail Hydra" instead of "Heil Hitler."

It shouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine they rejected racism and by extension anti-Semitism as a petty, small minded view of what it truly is to be superior. Basically they were playing for much bigger stakes, seeking not some childish "Aryan ideal" but the power of the gods themselves. Besides, it's not like someone with Red Skull's condition could seriously claim skin colour as being remotely relevant.

But six million Jews were not murdered because of their skin color -- that's a fairly superficial understanding of what racism is and what it entails. I'm not so sure that it would ever have been possible for Schmidt to ascend to the levels of power within the Third Reich that he must have reached to build up Hydra if he weren't a racist and anti-Semite. These concepts were at play in German society long before Hitler came to power -- he magnified these bigotries, he did not create them. They were endemic, and Hitler made them the basis for Nazi ideology.

To me, the idea of Hydra growing out of the Nazi Party yet not being racist and anti-Semitic just feels very implausible. The equivalent to me would be if you depicted a secret terrorist organization growing out of the Confederate States of America after the U.S. Civil War yet having it not believing in white supremacy.

*Maybe* in the beginning, during the days when Zola was rebuilding Hydra within Shield some of those prejudices were still knocking around, but 70 years is a long time and the organization grew on it's own and changed beyond Zola's control.

Well, let me put it this way -- would you find it plausible if the Ku Klux Klan were to declare they no longer believe in white supremacy?

Even that scenario seems unlikely to me. Zola never struck me as an ideologist. He was more of a cold logician who never showed any interest in the ethnic dogma.

I'm not aware of any evidence that Zola wasn't anti-Semitic or racist. And when you consider how widespread these kinds of bigotries were historically, and how shocked he was at Schmidt's decision to turn against Hitler, I think it's improbable that he didn't share the Nazi Party's bigotries.

Well, the Volkswagen is a tool, an object -- it's not an organization with a fascistic ideology. Essentially, the question is, can a Nazi organization lose its racism while keeping its authoritarian nature? I'm not sure it can, because in Nazism, the racist beliefs are intimately tied to the justification for authoritarianism...

Interesting conversation, and I can agree with much of what you say.

Volkswagen isn't/wasn't a tool; it is a corporation.

Pardon me -- when Christopher said "the Volkswagen," I took that to refer to the VW Bug, the iconic car that is often referred to as "the Volkswagen."

More to the point, it and many other German corporations at the time supported the Nazi party financially, and benefited from slave labour during the war.

This is a very valid point -- organizations can change their ethos. However, that kind of change usually requires that organization to exist in the open, requires public transparency and external pressure. I find it hard to believe that a secret conspiracy of fascists that starts out as a Nazi cult would abandon these core concepts.

And, speaking from an out-universe perspective, it seems weird from a creative standpoint to use Nazi iconography, the audience's knowledge of the evils of the Nazi Party, and to outright show them as growing from the Nazis... and yet to insist that while they're bad, at least they're not racists? I mean, why not have them be racists and anti-Semites? They're bad guys. The idea that they're equal-opportunity fascists just feels bizarre.

(Well, okay, I know the answer there: One, it starts making them feel a little too real, a little too close to real-life pain and suffering. And two, you can't really sell Hydra toys if they're overtly Nazis. Or, well, you could -- goodness knows children have been playing with Army guys fighting Nazis for decades -- but it would probably be seen as bad taste.)

However, any corporation will support any political regime that will maximize its profits.

Which is another way of saying, corporations don't support democracy. But I digress.

 

[JD]

At this point it's been 72 years since Hydra was part of the Nazi party, that strikes me as plenty of time for their ideology to change. Besides, if they agreed with everything that Nazism stood for then they probably wouldn't have left them in the first place.

 

[Christopher]

Besides, if they agreed with everything that Nazism stood for then they probably wouldn't have left them in the first place.

The Nazi Party wasn't really about ideology, it was about exploiting popular ideologies as a means of amassing power. It was called the National Socialist Party, but was neither nationalist nor socialist; it just called itself that because those were popular ideas in Germany at the time. And it embraced racism and anti-Semitism because mobilizing people against someone they can hate has always been an effective way to manipulate them. I'm sure Hitler and his cronies were genuinely racist, but they used it as a means to an end. Ultimately, above all else, it was about amassing power for themselves. The Red Skull wanted the same thing Hitler did -- to amass power. But he saw Hitler as a competitor for world domination, and that's why he broke HYDRA away from the Nazi Party.

So basically both did stand for the same thing: power for their leaders, by whatever devious, dishonest, or malicious means possible. If it were in HYDRA's interests to stir up race hatred in the public, they'd do it in a heartbeat. Heck, we know from TWS that HYDRA has spent decades inciting conflict and instability in nations throughout the world, and that probably included race riots, ethnic cleansings, and the like.

So it doesn't really matter whether HYDRA departed from the Nazis' specific ideologies. That doesn't make them any more moral or decent. Inciting hate, fear, and violence is still a basic part of what they do, even if the forms change.

 

[JD]

Oh, no they are definitely not better, and I never meant to imply they were. I just never really thought of the post-WWII Hydra members as being Nazis.

 

[bbjeg]

^Same here. Their unalignment with them in CA:TFA when Red Skull lazered the visiting Nazi explains it all.

 

[DEWLine]

And we're underway on "Who You Really Are"...

 

[kitik]

Hmm, nobody was backing up Fitz there, they all jumped on him for keeping a secret. Claiming they would have been on Skye's side, but really not acting like it. Then Mack showed us what he thinks about people who discover his secrets.

Nice to see an alien just pop in for a visit like it's no big deal. (Two aliens if you count Sif too.) Welcome to the new normal in the MCU.