Agency of Female Characters

[Spot261]

I'm not sure I understand why there should be significance to the women of the show using their skills without orders from superiors. After all, it's not as if the men use those skills without orders, either. This is just confused by the fact that the men are the superiors, getting to wear more rank braid than all the women of the given scene combined.

Which arguably is part of the problem. Lacking agency in this context may be universal to crewmen off all genders, but they are answering specifically to men who do in fact have that level of autonomy. Men can have that agency and there being examples of those without does not detract from that. Women are far less often seen in positions where their prominence or skills translate into the ability to take control or define the prevailing circumstances on their terms.

 

[cultcross]

^ quite. Of all the female characters we see on the original Trek, the vast majority are given little to no agency. An astonishing number just seen to exist to hand Kirk stuff to sign. Meanwhile the male cast make up all of the senior positions on board and regularly are shown making decisions affecting their own lives and those of others. Even female guest stars tend to end up in situations where the males make decisions for them, or do things to them, rather than actually taking matters into their own hands. And when they do, they are too often presented as maniacs, incompetent, distracted by love, or as a nuisance for not going along with things.

 

[Timo]

Which arguably is part of the problem.

What I mean is, it's apparently all of the problem. The writers dish out specific ranks and jobs to the characters, men get all the top positions, and that's that - nothing more can be done. Underlings using their powers without top-down commands are automatically in the wrong, not just because men are allowed to use their powers for good and women are written as using them for evil.

The degree of outside-the-orders activity then varies slightly, from horny men who abandon their post and walk to their doom in "Man Trap" to horny women who abandon their post and walk to utter triumph in "Space Seed". But this could never be portrayed as good, regardless of gender.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Phaser Two]

For the 1960s TOS was actually pretty liberal in its attitudes toward women, most notably in having Uhura in a position of importance and authority and showing strong-willed behavior by many of the female guest stars. Deela, Edith, Areel Shaw and many who were not Kirk love interests (Losira, Natira, Nona, the Romulan commander, Amanda, Mara, Vanna, Roberta Lincoln, Daras, and even Lester) all jump to mind.

 

[Commishsleer]

^ quite. Of all the female characters we see on the original Trek, the vast majority are given little to no agency. An astonishing number just seen to exist to hand Kirk stuff to sign. Meanwhile the male cast make up all of the senior positions on board and regularly are shown making decisions affecting their own lives and those of others. Even female guest stars tend to end up in situations where the males make decisions for them, or do things to them, rather than actually taking matters into their own hands. And when they do, they are too often presented as maniacs, incompetent, distracted by love, or as a nuisance for not going along with things.

While I'm not saying that TOS wasn't sexist I can't recall any male crew members having agency past Season 1 either. Apart from Scotty or Kirk, Spock or McCoy.
And there were women who did have agency - Deela, that lady from the Halloween episode, Natira, Miranda, Losira, Romulan Commander, the Amerind lady who married Kirk, the Spock's Brain women, Janice Freaking Lester, Elaan, the ladies from Cloud Minders. I know people are eliminating a lot of them as being nutcases or nuisances but there were a lot of men like that - Daystrom, Garth, Harry Mudd, every man in the Tribbles episode, Trelane.

Maybe I'm not understanding this agency thing,

 

[cultcross]

I can't recall any male crew members having agency past Season 1 either. Apart from Scotty or Kirk, Spock or McCoy

... So apart from the male regular cast and Scotty then...

 

[johnnybear]

How so?

Well he died didn't he!
JB

 

[Kor]

Amanda. While she did follow Sarek's orders, he certainly didn't order her to lecture Spock or slap him for his logic. He would have been furious with her if he'd been present when she did that (in a Vulcan way, of course). No, she didn't manage to convince him, but I think it did have an effect on how Spock and Sarek were able to reconcile as much as they did in that episode.

I thought "Amok Time" pointed to Vulcan society being matriarchal, but the opposite kind of dynamic seems apparent in Amanda and Sarek's relationship.

Kor

 

[Pauln6]

While I'm not saying that TOS wasn't sexist I can't recall any male crew members having agency past Season 1 either. Apart from Scotty or Kirk, Spock or McCoy.
And there were women who did have agency - Deela, that lady from the Halloween episode, Natira, Miranda, Losira, Romulan Commander, the Amerind lady who married Kirk, the Spock's Brain women, Janice Freaking Lester, Elaan, the ladies from Cloud Minders. I know people are eliminating a lot of them as being nutcases or nuisances but there were a lot of men like that - Daystrom, Garth, Harry Mudd, every man in the Tribbles episode, Trelane.

Maybe I'm not understanding this agency thing,

I think it was because the episodes I watched were crew-centric ones. There are some notable non-starfleet women who drive the plot. Deela is a good example. Mother Horta is another one.

Putting the focus on the main guys is fair enough. I was really comparing the women to the supporting male cast and it was just very noticeable that Sulu and DeSalle strategise while Uhura just plays the harpsichord and Ross just dances. Ross had a great opportunity to pump Trelane for info and does nothing.

Barrows quivers in fear and plays dress up while Sulu and McCoy do all the hard work. Martine cowers while Esteban hugs her and makes all the tactical decisions - she's the command ensign and he's the scientist. I will watch some if the later episodes and see if the supporting men beyond Scotty are marginalised as you suggest.

I don't think it's right to blame the time period entirely because Number One, Vina, and to a lesser extent Denher display far more agency. It's almost like someone high up told them to stop making the women too smart or too bossy as the show progressed.

 

[Spot261]

I thought "Amok Time" pointed to Vulcan society being matriarchal, but the opposite kind of dynamic seems apparent in Amanda and Sarek's relationship.

Kor

Conceivably the dynamic is complicated there by her being human?

 

[Timo]

But she specifically says this is the place of the Vulcan woman.

Might be very simple: there's a hierarchy based on age among other factors, and old women rule absolutely over middle-aged men while young women aren't fit to lick the soles of boys. Just go to China a few hundred years ago and see the mechanism in splendid action.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Commishsleer]

I think it was because the episodes I watched were crew-centric ones. There are some notable non-starfleet women who drive the plot. Deela is a good example. Mother Horta is another one.

Putting the focus on the main guys is fair enough. I was really comparing the women to the supporting male cast and it was just very noticeable that Sulu and DeSalle strategise while Uhura just plays the harpsichord and Ross just dances. Ross had a great opportunity to pump Trelane for info and does nothing.

Barrows quivers in fear and plays dress up while Sulu and McCoy do all the hard work. Martine cowers while Esteban hugs her and makes all the tactical decisions - she's the command ensign and he's the scientist. I will watch some if the later episodes and see if the supporting men beyond Scotty are marginalised as you suggest.

I don't think it's right to blame the time period entirely because Number One, Vina, and to a lesser extent Denher display far more agency. It's almost like someone high up told them to stop making the women too smart or too bossy as the show progressed.

Yes I agree that as the show progressed, women crew members had less to do aside from being victims, infatuated in the manly men, yeomen. I think that men in the crew also had less to do as the popularity of the 3 male leads increased and all the smart suggestions, moves, ideas, good storylines were all given to them. Saying that 90% of the time, male crew members occupied the more important positions on the ship on the bridge and in security.
There were a few rare exceptions. I love it in Armegeddon when Spock gets the Yeoman to guard the prisoner. When a woman actually manned navigation. Noel and Palamas saved the day episodes in their respective. Noel was initially fooled by the doctor ( as was Kirk ) and Palamas quickly saved the day when reminded by Kirk there was a way out. I thought Scotty acted more stupidly in that episode.

 

[C57D]

My personal "Number 1 ST inappropriate cowering female" is Mara when Chekov attacks her. Given her culture and species, I can't imagine a less likely victim of male aggression. Of course it was just so Kirk could rescue her - but come on!
At the very least she should have rattled his skull!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

My personal "Number 1 ST inappropriate cowering female" is Mara when Chekov attacks her. Given her culture and species, I can't imagine a less likely victim of male aggression. Of course it was just so Kirk could rescue her - but come on!
At the very least she should have rattled his skull!

If only Jerome Bixby had known how the Klingons would be re-imagined 20 years later.

 

[Pauln6]

Yes I agree that as the show progressed, women crew members had less to do aside from being victims, infatuated in the manly men, yeomen. I think that men in the crew also had less to do as the popularity of the 3 male leads increased and all the smart suggestions, moves, ideas, good storylines were all given to them. Saying that 90% of the time, male crew members occupied the more important positions on the ship on the bridge and in security.
There were a few rare exceptions. I love it in Armegeddon when Spock gets the Yeoman to guard the prisoner. When a woman actually manned navigation. Noel and Palamas saved the day episodes in their respective. Noel was initially fooled by the doctor ( as was Kirk ) and Palamas quickly saved the day when reminded by Kirk there was a way out. I thought Scotty acted more stupidly in that episode.

Technically though Palamis and Noel were just following Kirk's direct orders. I give Noel extra points because she has to make the decision to fight. Palamis just gets a new dress.

 

[C57D]

If only Jerome Bixby had known how the Klingons would be re-imagined 20 years later.

Okay caught me out day dreaming again lol !

 

[Forbin]

Well he died didn't he!
JB

Also, the next guy we see her with, gets her strafed to death by one of "those funny flying machines" from WWII.

 

[Kor]

My personal "Number 1 ST inappropriate cowering female" is Mara when Chekov attacks her. Given her culture and species, I can't imagine a less likely victim of male aggression. Of course it was just so Kirk could rescue her - but come on!
At the very least she should have rattled his skull!

Well, there was the weird alien influence to consider. Nobody was acting like themselves.

Kor

 

[Timewalker]

Also, the next guy we see her with, gets her strafed to death by one of "those funny flying machines" from WWII.

She wasn't "strafed to death." She literally ran into a tree and got knocked down.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

She wasn't "strafed to death." She literally ran into a tree and got knocked down.

I always thought that the intent was that she ran into the tree after she had been shot and because she was no longer conscious of where she was going. But that's just how I interpret events from watching the episode; I've never read the script.