After Voyager, whats the order of your favourite ST series?

[scottydog]

^Regarding the DS9 vs Voyager debate, I happen to like both series very much. They both had excellent characters and had a number of amazing classic-trek episodes that left me exhilerated. The only reason I rank DS9, overall, as better than Voyager is because I believe DS9 is more consistently excellent. But the best Voyager episodes are easily as good as the best DS9 episodes, IMHO.

 

[kent]

Voyager
TNG
DS9
TOS

I'm not even putting Enterprise on here. It had so much wasted potential and screwed canon timelines.

 

[kent]

Ooh never watched any BSG... as an avid Voy fan, would I like it?

In a word NO!

BSG is essentially Voyager done the way the folks from DS9 would have preferred to do things.

As an avid Niner, I generally suggest that Voyager fans stay away from BSG. If you cannot appreciate the larger cast, complex characters and "darker" setting/themes found on DS9, then you probably will not be able to take BSG. Ron Moore had a very bad experiece when he tried working on Voyager. He, like most of the DS9 writers, found that he could not get behind alot of the "creative" decisions on Voyager. He was openly derisive of B&B's steadfast determination to ignore the reality of Voyager's situation. BSG incorporates alot of the struggles and sense of continuity that he found lacking in Voyager.

So no, if you consider Voyager your favorite version of Trek, you will hate BSG.

I completely disagree with that. Voyager's my favorite series, but I LOVE BSG. Just because I liked Voyager doesn't mean I'm, or other fans, are so one-dimensional we can't "get" other types of sci-fi. You should let people try something out first before making a decision.

I do agree with Ron Moore though, if that's the case. Voyager was too "clean" and it did ignore the realities of thier situation a lot. But I still like that show the best. Janeway ROCKS and Paris is hot.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Voyager is the Trek show which have the most (and sometimes worst) internal debates among the fans.

I think it's because the fanbase is very split-up. While the "niners" seem to be devoted fans of everything DS9 and the TNG fans seem to be very happy with most of TNG, the Voyager fanbase is split-up with people liking different aspects of the show.

I guess that certain decisions made by those in charge during the run of the series has created that situation.

Maybe we should give them some credit for making decisions which still creates debates, despite the fact that the series is no longer in production.

Heh. Well, I guess that's one way of looking at it.

But yeah. Fundamentally I agree with you. I can't speak for TNG fans as I don't care for that show and therefore spend zero time in that forum (haven't even been in there in about 2 - 3 years). But I CAN tell you that DS9 fans are not anywhere near as divided as VOY fans are about various aspects of 'their' show.

Don't know why that is...but I do agree with you on that point.

Anyway, as is probably abundantly obvious to everyone reading this, VOY is not my favorite Trek, so the assumption made for the thread doesn't really apply to me.

However, I can say that, while DS9 is my first love, I also very much like VOY and TOS. And which I like better depends on the day you ask me.

I don't really care for TNG and ENT much, so I won't comment on those.

 

[tomalak301]

Well, as someone who still spends some time in the TNG forum, I do think Lynx's analysis is accurate. It's pretty much certain that after the first two seasons, TNG got better and the three best seasons (Or 4) were 3, 4, and 5 (and 6). It does seem like there are many aspects of Voyager which are diverse among the crowd here, such as the best season, the hotly touted Kes vs. Seven debate, was Gerratt Wang really one of the sexiest people alive thus kicking out Jennifer Lien (Ok, maybe not that one but I digress ).

As for me, I've already admitted I've been on a Voyager high lately. It seems whenever I want to watch Trek, it's always been Voyager, and I finally completed the series last year. However, for me to say that Voyager is the best would be wrong, since my first loves are TNG and DS9, but if you were to say what is my favorite series right now, I probably would have to go with Voyager.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Ooh never watched any BSG... as an avid Voy fan, would I like it?

In a word NO!

BSG is essentially Voyager done the way the folks from DS9 would have preferred to do things.

As an avid Niner, I generally suggest that Voyager fans stay away from BSG. If you cannot appreciate the larger cast, complex characters and "darker" setting/themes found on DS9, then you probably will not be able to take BSG. Ron Moore had a very bad experiece when he tried working on Voyager. He, like most of the DS9 writers, found that he could not get behind alot of the "creative" decisions on Voyager. He was openly derisive of B&B's steadfast determination to ignore the reality of Voyager's situation. BSG incorporates alot of the struggles and sense of continuity that he found lacking in Voyager.

So no, if you consider Voyager your favorite version of Trek, you will hate BSG.

I completely disagree with that. Voyager's my favorite series, but I LOVE BSG. Just because I liked Voyager doesn't mean I'm, or other fans, are so one-dimensional we can't "get" other types of sci-fi. You should let people try something out first before making a decision.

I do agree with Ron Moore though, if that's the case. Voyager was too "clean" and it did ignore the realities of thier situation a lot. But I still like that show the best. Janeway ROCKS and Paris is hot.

Wow...can't resist commenting on this exchange. It's too good to pass up.

As a fan of VOY myself, I am not of the opinion that VOY fans are incapable of 'getting' anything else. I think it is perfectly reasonable for VOY fans to also be fans of other scifi shows. Just like anyone else. And to state otherwise is just absurd.

Long story short - I think it is perfectly reasonable to think that VOY fans might like BSG.

However, I WILL say that the comment above that:

BSG is essentially Voyager done the way the folks from DS9 would have preferred to do things.

is a pretty accurate statement. Both from the showrunner's POV and the fans POV. At least IMO.

In short, BSG is the VOY most DS9 fans would have liked to have seen.

And I also believe that it is the show VOY would have become, at least in part, if Ronald D. Moore had stayed with VOY for more than a few weeks after wrapping up DS9 and had been given the lattitude that the DS9 writers were given, or just plain TOOK, from Rick Berman with regard to the show. I think alot of the ideas RDM perhaps had for VOY got put into BSG when his stay on VOY was cut (extremely) short.

Now, it's debatable, I suppose, whether 'Battlestar Voyager' would have been a good thing or not. But personally, I think it would have rocked the frakkin' house! It is pretty much EXACTLY what I had hoped for out of VOY.

Not saying VOY is 'bad'. Because it's not. I like VOY. But I do think it could have been even better. If it had been darker and grittier.

I'll make no apologies - we DS9 fans are all ABOUT 'dark and gritty'. We LOVE that stuff. And so yeah...I agree that many of us see BSG as 'the VOY that could have been'.

In fact, if it had been set in the Trek Universe, BSG could easily have been a logical extension of DS9, in many ways. The next 'evolution', if you will, in the direction of 'darker and grittier'....with a large extended cast, tons of well developed secondary characters, and lots of intrigue between all of these characters. All in an atmosphere of grindingly horrible, fear-for-your-lives constant tension.

Oh YEAH! That's what I'm talkin' about!

It's why we love the Dominionn War...and it's why many of us DS9 fans love the 'atmosphere' of BSG.

 

[joyofvgr]

^I have to say I love your post with all it's enthusiasm! I don't necessarily agree with Trek being as dark as BSG, but then again I haven't really seen DS9 yet. Maybe once I see that I'll feel differently.

 

[kimc]

Voyager was brilliant for its first couple of seasons, but I really started giving up around season 5 for various reasons.

I prefer the earlier seasons myself. It's funny how even the most die-hard Voyager fans have a preference for either earlier or later seasons.

Overally, I think it's a pretty rewarding universe to get involved in I just wish I'd got into it before the final few episodes

At least you'll now avoid a lot of the "What the frak, we're supposed to wait now to see what happens!?" that I've experienced the last few years.

 

[Gates]

Closely trailing Voy would be TNG, followed by TOS and the Animated Series, then DS9 and I've seen maybe two eps of ENT so that would definitely be last.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

^I have to say I love your post with all it's enthusiasm! I don't necessarily agree with Trek being as dark as BSG, but then again I haven't really seen DS9 yet. Maybe once I see that I'll feel differently.

Well, then yeah...you have to see DS9 before making that judgment. Because I think pretty much anyone who has seen it (especially from about season 4 onward) would tell you that it is the darkest and grittiest of the Trek shows.

Not as dark and gritty as BSG....but definitely the closest thing to it in Trek. Especially from about season 4 onward. Things tend to get pretty grim when the entire Alpha Quadrant is embroiled in an intergalactic war.

Put it this way: as a fan of RDM when he was working on DS9, I wasn't at all surprised with how BSG turned out. Large extended cast with tons of secondary characters that are all well developed (like DS9), long story arcs (like DS9), lots of intrigue (like DS9), a really big and really bad enemy - some of whom can make themselves look human - who, throughout the show threaten the very survival of the human race (in DS9's case, the AQ).

Yeah....DS9 turned out to be a great training ground for RDM, I think.

My recommendations? If you like VOY and you like BSG, you really should give DS9 a try. And by 'a try' I don't mean season 1 - that is all setup. It's an arc-based show and the main arc of the show doesn't get into gear until about the end of season 3. After that, it gets more grim all the time.

Oh...and while I'm making totally unsolicited recommendations? You might want to give Babylon 5 a peek too. IMO the most comprehensive and well-planned series-long story arc in scifi. And another show that gives you that same feeling of impending doom for much of it's run.

Anyway, here is a link to a trailer made by one of the guys in the DS9 forum. It actually sums up the show very nicely, as much as you can sum up a 7 year show in 4 minutes, that is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s-nDssQRtI

At the very least, you will see that DS9 is in another league, as far as 'dark and gritty' goes in Trek.

 

[Akiraprise]

My shows get ranked like this:
VOY>DS9>TNG>TOS>ENT

DS9 and TNG are pretty close though. I like them both.
DS9 had some awesome villains and cool space battles. Although the lack of shields for most of the starships is somewhat of a concern.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

^ Damn Breen.

 

[Akiraprise]

That was just a retcon. I saw Cardassian weapon platforms blow holes through fully operational starships in two seconds flat.

I understand why they did that. It got kind of annoying in TNG when every few seconds we heard "Shields down to 98%, 45%, oops back up to 78%." There wasn't much of that in DS9.

 

[number6]

TOS>DS9>ENT>VOY>TAS>TNG

 

[Gorf]

My recommendations? If you like VOY and you like BSG, you really should give DS9 a try.

I love Voyager and I LOVE BSG. Many Voyager fans love BSG - in fact it's spread in the community like a wildfire. However, I bought a couple of seasons of DS9 years ago and just couldn't get into it. Don't think I even finished all the tapes.

And by 'a try' I don't mean season 1 - that is all setup. It's an arc-based show and the main arc of the show doesn't get into gear until about the end of season 3. After that, it gets more grim all the time.

Darn!!! That might explain it. Why oh why didnt I know that. Think the seasons I got was 1 and 2 as I figured might as well start from the beginning. Oh well... maybe I'll try again someday.

 

[exodus]

That was just a retcon. I saw Cardassian weapon platforms blow holes through fully operational starships in two seconds flat.

..or "Sacrifice of the Angels" where Cardassian & Dominion ships were ripping thru Starfleet vessels as if they were made of paper. You never saw any shields what so ever.

No wonder 9'ers don't understand how Voyager gets around the Borg, shields are barely used on DS9. So much for it being less flawed than Voy.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

My recommendations? If you like VOY and you like BSG, you really should give DS9 a try.

I love Voyager and I LOVE BSG. Many Voyager fans love BSG - in fact it's spread in the community like a wildfire. However, I bought a couple of seasons of DS9 years ago and just couldn't get into it. Don't think I even finished all the tapes.

And by 'a try' I don't mean season 1 - that is all setup. It's an arc-based show and the main arc of the show doesn't get into gear until about the end of season 3. After that, it gets more grim all the time.

Darn!!! That might explain it. Why oh why didnt I know that. Think the seasons I got was 1 and 2 as I figured might as well start from the beginning. Oh well... maybe I'll try again someday.

Well, it was good that you started from the beginning. But it is pretty much a fact that the first two seasons, which were more under Rick Berman's control, were much more episodic and filled with alot more setup and 'finding it's feet'. Rick Berman was NOT a fan of story arcs...and the only reason we got the Dominion war later in the show is because Berman was occupied elsewhere (VOY and Trek movies) and Ira Behr pretty much defied him and wrote the war.

During season 3, things start to pick up. And most DS9 fans, if you ask what their favorite season is, will tell you either 5, 6 or 7 (for example, my personal favorite seasons are 6, 7 and 5...in that order, followed by 4, 3, 2 and 1, in that order). The later seasons are when the Dominion War becomes inevitable (during season 5), and then becomes a reality (end of season 5 through to the last episode of the show).

Season 4 begins alot of the preliminary squabbling which leads to the Dominion War, plus it features major confrontations with both the Maquis and the Klingons....the latter of which ended up tying in rather directly to the Dominion War in ways I won't spoil for you.

Being a VOY fan, you might especially get a real kick out of the Maquis episodes in particular. One of them, an episode called "For the Uniform" is among my top 10 episodes of DS9. Although the backstory for that episode, which involves some rather shocking betrayals, occurs in an even earlier episode. As I said...it's an arc-based show.

That was just a retcon. I saw Cardassian weapon platforms blow holes through fully operational starships in two seconds flat.

..or "Sacrifice of the Angels" where Cardassian & Dominion ships were ripping thru Starfleet vessels as if they were made of paper. You never saw any shields what so ever.

No wonder 9'ers don't understand how Voyager gets around the Borg, shields are barely used on DS9. So much for it being less flawed than Voy.

Okay....now we both know, exodus, that we were not privy to what was going on on those ships they 'tore through like paper'. I'm sure they had shields....but how many times in Star Trek do you hear some engineer yelll "Captain! We've lost the shields!!!"

Our heroes (not just in DS9 but in VOY as well) always seem to get those shields back because...well...the characters need to live in order to continue the show. But it is perfectly reasonable to assume that some ships when they lose shields don't get them back in time and get 'cut through like paper'.

I think of those ships that got blown up in rather breathtaking fashion as sorta the equivalent of 'redshirt ships'.

A bunch of redshirt ships got creamed, just like redshirt people always get creamed. But THE DEFIANT (our heros) made it through the lines.

That is sorta the point.

Horrible casualties and loss of life...but the Defiant made it through.

 

[exodus]

Trust me, I get the point.

However, it does stand to reason why so many don't understand why Voyager holds up so well to attack from a Borg Cube while bigger, stronger ships on DS9 are getting their ass handed to them in just one shot. Those are some drastic extremes and many don't rationalize it that way.


Too bad you don't have the power to reach the entire fanbase to explain the "Red Shirt" concept. Many need to hear it...................whether they will comprehend it, is a different story. Not to mention those that need everything to make scientific sense.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

^ Well, it never really bothered me about Voyager standing up to Borg ships well. I know some people who dislike VOY have a beef with that, but I don't care what they think.

Truthfully, I'm not that much into the 'science' of scifi unless something is silly. I can suspend disbelief pretty well so most things don't bother me from a 'bad science' or 'comparative science between shows' perspective. I tend to care more about the characters than about the science. That's why it's called science FICTION.

So, for example, it doesn't bother me that Voyager was able to stand up to the Borg, while many Federation ships got blown out of the sky by the Cardassians and the Jem'Hadar in Sacrifice of Angels.

But it DOES bother me that Tom Paris got turned into a salamander after breaking warp 10. That's just silly.

That's about where I'm at with the science stuff. I mean, there are alot of things about space battles that don't make sense. Fire can't survive in space, for example. And I don't think there is sound in space either, right?

But I'm not bothered about such things. Who wants to suck all the joy out of everything by worrying about crap like that?

 

[Gotham Central]

Trust me, I get the point.

However, it does stand to reason why so many don't understand why Voyager holds up so well to attack from a Borg Cube while bigger, stronger ships on DS9 are getting their ass handed to them in just one shot. Those are some drastic extremes and many don't rationalize it that way.


Too bad you don't have the power to reach the entire fanbase to explain the "Red Shirt" concept. Many need to hear it...................whether they will comprehend it, is a different story. Not to mention those that need everything to make scientific sense.

This issue was addressed on the show itself. Early on it was stated that Federation and Klingon shield technology was not able to withstand much punishment from Dominion weapons. That's why the Allies were losing so badly early in the war. In "A Call to Arms" Weyoun is very surprised that the station's shileds held at all.

It should also be noted that many of those ships did in fact have shileds. However, as with TOS, they were not shown to be a bubble around the ship. the shields were supposed to be more "form fitted." This is why the previously mentioned sequence in A Call to Arms shows Dominion forces pounding a particular section of the station and the section holding for awhile. The dialogue in the sequence clearly mentions that the shields were up. This depiction of the shields was common in TOS and in the TOS movies (the battle scene in TUC immediately comes to mind).