Poll A way the S31/MU-Gergiou show COULD work?

Discussion in 'Future of Trek' started by Rahul, Feb 1, 2019.

?

Which evil Georgiou would you accept as a main character?

  1. Space Hitler herself - no problem whatsoever

    13 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Mind-wiped: Same body & similar personality, new "person" inside

    4 vote(s)
    15.4%
  3. Something else (evil clone, future-self from the past, Kelvin-Georgiou, ...)

    3 vote(s)
    11.5%
  4. No - Cancel the S31-Georgiou show before it even airs!

    12 vote(s)
    46.2%
  5. All of the above

    1 vote(s)
    3.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Rahul

    Rahul Commodore Commodore

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    So. I'm one of the people most averse to the idea of a Section 31 / Empress-Georgiou-superspy show.
    Here's the thing though:
    • I adore Michelle Yeoh
    • Her haming it up in black leather and chewing the scenery is fun to watch
    • The idea of a misfit-gang of formerly evil superspies protecting the Federation by shady means from a cool, small spaceship is - in my opinion - actually a neat concept
    • lastly: Coming right off DIS episode 2x03 "Point of Light" - I can actually see the appeal that such a show had to everyone behind the scenes
    Now here is the problem I have - it's entirely only related to the character of MU Georgiou:
    • Empress MU Georgious is a fascist
    • She's a genocidal maniac and mass murderer and torturer
    • She's a friggin' space cannibal
    • And, oh yeah, she's a fucking genocidal fascist space cannibal. All at once!
    No matter what, no matter how good the cast, how amazing the vfx, how great the written plots are - this is just too much to endure. Too much to ever take serious. And WAY too much to ever forgive or forget. Basically - had MU Georgiou been just a reformed run-of-the-mill villain - at this point I'd be fully on board with such a show. But her being essentially Cannibal Space Hitler - that's just too much. They simply went ludicrously too far with her evil-ness in season 1, and now she's simply way, way beyond any hope of redemption or even sympathy for her character. As if they snatched up Hitler personally from his bunker and put him on stylish spy adventures in the 60s. It's just too much.

    But I have thought about this a lot recently - under what kind of changes I would be willing to give this show a chance. And I have come up with this:

    A sci-fi twist.

    Now the threshold for me to accept this show, for me personally, is that the main hero of the show is not the same person that commanded the Terran Empire anymore. Not just reformed or redeemed. But simply another person. Even if it's in the same body, and with the same personality.

    Luckily - SF can do that! It could have been prime-Georgiou, taken by time-travellers, her evil clone, or something else. But let's say we want the evil, hammy, MU Georgiou, here is what I would accept:

    A complete mind-wipe.

    As in - after MU Georgiou was brought to the prime universe, and then recruited to do the Kronos-genocide (:rolleyes:) - after that - S31 realised how much of an asset she could be - but also how dangerous. And, to exploit her as a tool for S31 - they entirely wiped her mind, all her memories, leaving behind essentially an empty shell, deviously cunning, but every bit of actual knowledge and experience she has now comes from Federation databases. Essentially - an entirely new person, built only to protect the Federation, but built on the foundation of her old personality, and her means-justify-the-ends approach.

    Basically a tool that - like Khan in "Into Darkness" - merely exists to do the nasty stuff. But without her being the actual Empress - but her being like "The Winter Soldier" from Captain America, or Joss Whedons "Dollhouse": A person, that doesn't know who she is, that's efficient, cunning, dangerous, but also afraid of herself and of what she might have done before she was (re-)"born".

    Hell, it would be great drama, for her to slowly learn and uncover who she really is, who this body was, and be a great moral dilemma for her (and her environment). If she actually is the Empress, or a completely new character, with her own morals and ideals? If she's responsible for the things her body did before she was the person she is now? If I remember correctly, the SW video game "Knights of the Old Republic" did something similar, where the main character turned out to have been Darth Revan(?) in the past.

    This is a premise I'd actually could get behind.
    Now, it's probably unrealistic - because the Georgiou on DIS, already on missions, still clearly is the old "Empress" and remembers her time (and not just as vague nightmares after a memory-wipe, but actually still 100% being the same person, just now on the "good guy's side"). And it would make Section 31 much more evil - completely denying the human rights of MU Georgiou (which she even as a fascist cannibal has), and completely de-humanize her (which...would be kind of fitting).

    But that would also, IMO make for quite an interesting show: A whole group of reformed badguys, all having various degrees of evil deeds, now working more or less freely for the "good" side, to protect civilians, but in a shady and corrupt way, and their leader - Georgiou - having the darkest past of them all - which is also the darkest secret to herself.

    Just... make the main character of an entire show not Space Hitler. I'm completely fine with a new person - with similar personality traits, now only steered into way different paths - in the same old body though.

    I don't know, what do you guys think about that?
     
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  2. DaveyNY

    DaveyNY Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I seem to remember a show actually called "HANNIBAL" that pretty much fits with everything you've described above.

    I never watched it myself, but I do recall that it did quite well in the ratings dept.

    I can't imagine something similar, but with a Trek spin on it would do any worse.

    And honestly, I'd rather take a wait and see attitude, before projecting any animosity toward it.
    :shrug:
     
  3. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Shouldn't this be in future trek?
     
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  4. dodge

    dodge Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Generally it's considered bad from to Godwin a thread in the first post. :p
     
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  5. Rahul

    Rahul Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    We live in a post-Godwin's law-world now. Even Mike Godwin himself has taken that position - If the comparison is actually truthfull, and not purely hyperbolic - call a spade a spade:

    https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/896884949634232320


    Though Hannibal clearly was meant to be disturbing and show you how disturbing and perverse cannibalism is. It's a really, really difficult show to watch. Dexter is also a sow where it's absolutely made clear the main character is a complete monster. But even Dexter tries careful not to go too far.

    The Georgiou show clearly isn't supposed to be that! From what we saw in ep2x03 - it's very, very obvious they set this up as a fun, spy-fi adventure romp, with hammy scenes, cool gadgets and charismatic characters. And these two simply don't mix well..

    Yes... Sorry!
    I originally put it in the DISCO-forum because of the Georgiou connection (and because all these thoughts came directly from DIS episode 2x03) - but you're right!
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  6. Midquest

    Midquest Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2017
    I think I could root for Mirror Georgiou.

    The idea that she's a space fascist makes sense in our universe, where people have plenty of opportunities not to be absolute monsters, but in the Mirror Universe? The MU, being the hive of fanciful comic book villainy it is, does not allow people access to the intellectual resources or physical means to learn and practice ethical behavior. Evil is status quo. Fear, hate, and extremism are not even choices for most people, but something into which they are indoctrinated from childhood. Peace and equity are not available concepts. So while Georgiou is a monster, that monstrosity carries a different value than does similar monstrosity in a universe where peace, justice, equity, kindness, and not slaughtering your neighbor before breakfast are possibilities. Some of our most upstanding Prime Universe protagonists have turned out to be just the worst in the Mirror Universe; perhaps the same is true for Georgiou, in reverse.

    So while I'm not ready to root for her just yet (although Michelle Yeoh is a delight, and just killing it in the role), I do think Mirror Geogiou deserves a chance to encounter the philosophical assets for moral being that have been withheld: ideas like peace, kindness, love, joy, equity, and freedom. I'd like to see her changed by this new world, and recognize what terrible things she has done. And that surely is the arc that the show has set up:

    Of course she's going to come for her. Of course they're going to have this out again. Of course loyalties will be strained, values will be tested, and choices will be made. And I would bet that, by the end, Georgiou will be changed by the Prime Universe. What could be more absurdly Trekkian than providing even the worst person with a chance to be a good one? I don't expect her to be on the list for Sainthood, but I can see her occupying a chaotic neutral, even chaotic good position given a little time.

    We already know that the prospective Section 31 writers are aware of the potential backlash inherent in a show that doesn't embrace Trek's values, as they have assured us that it will do. And a good show will need a rich, complex protagonist. I think we can get that from Georgiou.

    Edit: typo
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  7. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If she's someone you're not supposed to root for, it could work. If they make her sympathetic... well, TrekBBS has spelled out her atrocities in case the writers have forgotten, and it will show how utterly out of touch they are if they think she can be a quirky mischievous anti-hero.
     
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  8. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's a shame they couldn't have gotten Michelle Yeoh into a decent Trek series, she deserves better.
     
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  9. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    DSC is decent
     
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  10. Bgt

    Bgt Commander Red Shirt

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    Was Hitler a cannibal?
    MU Georgiou is not a character I would like to see a series about. Yeoh is an actress I would love to have her own ST series.
    Of course if S1 creators had a little of sense in their minds, they wouldn't kill the Federation Georgiou.
    Anyway, from what we saw in "Point of Light" it didn't feel like if her mind was wiped/reset in the last episode, so if they make a series about her (I guess) she will be the same evil/appalling character.
     
  11. rhllot

    rhllot Commander Red Shirt

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    In the Kelvin universe, which is almost the same as the main universe and only the timeline changed a few years before discovery, section 31 recruited the worst dictator of the history of humanity who ruled half of the planet!
     
  12. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    This is my expectation.
     
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  13. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    To each their own.
     
  14. ISS-Magnum

    ISS-Magnum Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Well...

    KIRK: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen, in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.
    SPOCK: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is
    KIRK: Mister Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless.
    SCOTT: There were no massacres under his rule.

    * * * * *

    Keywirds: no massacres under his rule.
    Khan is nothing like Philippa.
     
  15. Cake

    Cake Captain Captain

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    And this whole conspiracy crap and section 31 made Into Darkness clearly the worst of the new movies. Section 31 was already a bad idea in DS9 and none of the other series/movies changed that.

    Based on what they said so far I expect they go the antihero route with her. She will work in the interest of the Federation, but will use very questionable methods. I expect she will be written in a way to make people root for her just like people root for other antiheroes. And I don't think such a series should be part of the Star Trek franchise.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
  16. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Except the ID version of Khan's goal was the genocide of "anyone less than superior" according to the movie.

    I have no issue with Section 31 hatching catastrophically stupid plans to repurpose genocial maniacs. It's just the premise of the show seems... bad.
     
  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Not clear to me. Prefer Into Darkness over Beyond.
    Why not? Why must Star Trek always showcase the best of humanity and not be willing to challenge our darker natures? TOS and DS9 did the best of the series, acknowledging that humanity has an element of savagery. And, as much as I applaud Trek's optimistic foundation this new tendency to shy away from humanity's darkness is highly questionable to me.

    Now, I am not certain this S31/Georgiou series will work, and am not convinced of the anti-hero route. But, that doesn't mean there is no place for it in Trek.
     
  18. guyute03

    guyute03 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The problem for me is they seem to be saying "Section 31 is NOT bad (as it was portrayed in DS9), it is necessary."

    I don't know how this works. I hope they figure it out, because it could be interesting, but I can't get past O'Brien's views on Section 31. It's existence IS wrong to me.

    I don't want them to go down this ends justifies the means path, because that path is wrong.
    At least to my morality it is.

    Just my opinion.
     
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  19. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Obviously, Section 31 thinks themselves necessary. Wait until Burnham starts monologuing about it in a few episodes' time for the writers' views.
     
  20. eschaton

    eschaton Commodore Commodore

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    The worse aspect is if the series goes on for long enough, it may not be content to essentially portray Section 31 as mucking about in the internal affairs of non-Federation powers. They may go the counterintelligence route, mucking around in the internal affairs of the Federation. This is an awful direction to go, because it offers the choice of either showcasing internal corruption within the Federation (meaning casting a light - repeatedly - on bad things we've mostly missed out on in earlier series) or having Section 31 do things like suppress legitimate internal pacifist movements within the Federation for "the greater good."
     
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