A question of phrasing

[ZapBrannigan]

After our recent rewatches of TOS, I came away from Amok Time thinking Pon Farr really only happens to male Vulcans and only once in their lives around the age of 30.

I think that was Sturgeon's intention: Ponn farr is one-and-done. You go home and get married. But then came "The Cloud Minders" in which Spock clearly says Vulcans go into heat once every seven years.

My theory: when they wrote "The Cloud Minders" in the age of paper-only documents, it was too much trouble to find a copy of "Amok Time," so they went from memory. Spock said his marriage to T'Pring was arranged at age seven, and he mentioned some giant eel birds that must return to their hatchery every eleven years to mate. This got mixed up in the writers' minds and came out "Spock has to mate once every seven years." So a false memory became canon.

 

[Poltargyst]

Is that because they usually die soon after like on Starships out in space defending the Federation? No, the Vulcan male had it every seven years or so we learned in The Cloud Minders, although that line was cut in the BBC screened episodes of the seventies and eighties!
JB

I'm saying I don't think it happening every seven years was the original intention. By the time of Cloud Minders things had changed.

 

[Hofner]

I think that was Sturgeon's intention: Ponn farr is one-and-done. You go home and get married. But then came "The Cloud Minders" in which Spock clearly says Vulcans go into heat once every seven years.

My theory: when they wrote "The Cloud Minders" in the age of paper-only documents, it was too much trouble to find a copy of "Amok Time," so they went from memory. Spock said his marriage to T'Pring was arranged at age seven, and he mentioned some giant eel birds that must return to their hatchery every eleven years to mate. This got mixed up in the writers' minds and came out "Spock has to mate once every seven years." So a false memory became canon.

This has long been a theory of mine because I long ago noticed there was no mention of a seven year cycle in "Amok Time although I didn't connect the 11 year cycle, good catch. Indeed, as have benn mentioned, the episode definitely indicates Spock has not gone through Pon Farr before and he and T'Pring has not mated before.

But thanks to "The Cloud Minders" and the movie "The Search For Spock", we're supposed to believe Spock and T'Pring had already mated when they were 14, (!?!) 21 and 28 years old.

Afterthought:

I think Vulcans can certainly have sex outside the seven year cycle but going by the assumption they can only do it every seven years...

I've never seen anyone mention this before but has anyone ever noticed that in "Amok Time", Spock didn't 'get any'?

He's had to wait seven years and then T'Pring goes and makes the shallenge and in the process of fighting and apparently killing Kirk, the urge has left him and he has to wait ANOTHER seven years! DOOOH!!

Robert

 

[BillJ]

Okay, but I'm here to tell you: Nimoy-Spock would never act like Quinto-Spock unless he were under the influence of alien spores or something.

We never saw TOS Spock alone in an intimate moment with what would be his "Amanda". Have to remember these characters have "lives" outside of what we see in the episodes. We're only seeing a small slice of them.

 

[Timo]

My theory: when they wrote "The Cloud Minders" in the age of paper-only documents, it was too much trouble to find a copy of "Amok Time," so they went from memory. Spock said his marriage to T'Pring was arranged at age seven, and he mentioned some giant eel birds that must return to their hatchery every eleven years to mate. This got mixed up in the writers' minds and came out "Spock has to mate once every seven years." So a false memory became canon.

...Also lost in the process was Spock likening his condition to that of the salmon, which do "cycles" about as often as they need 'cycles. For the salmon, it's literally do-and-die. (Now there's a fun concept, of Spock returning home not just to spawn, but to conclude his career for good!)

Not that there'd be much wrong with the seven-year cycle as such. Or with Spock flirting. Both are extraneous to the story of "Amok Time", and to pretty much every other TOS story, too, but they are not in contradiction, either.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Poltargyst]

I've never seen anyone mention this before but has anyone ever noticed that in "Amok Time", Spock didn't 'get any'?

It's been talked about. I think the consensus has been that the male Vulcan returns home and either gets sex or has a fight to the death. If T'Pring had accepted Spock, then they would have gone off and had hot sex. But she didn't, so there was a fight to the (apparent) death, which instead ended Spock's Pon Farr.

 

[Phoenix219]

Either way, he released his emotions, through lust and sex, or anger and adrenaline, I suppose.

 

[Timo]

It's been talked about. I think the consensus has been that the male Vulcan returns home and either gets sex or has a fight to the death. If T'Pring had accepted Spock, then they would have gone off and had hot sex. But she didn't, so there was a fight to the (apparent) death, which instead ended Spock's Pon Farr.

The fun thing here is, we have witnessed pon farr quite a few times, and to our best knowledge it has never resulted in death. Nor has it resulted in sex, except just possibly in ST3:TSfS, with the growth spurt of Spock's second incarnation potentially going through a couple of pon farrs in succession (but the first incarnation never underwent any at a comparable age...).

So, classic sex education at its most dishonest? ("Going blind" probably works, too, until the kids figure out it's just their inner eyelids.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johnnybear]

In Amok Time we learn of Pon Farr and that Vulcans are intensely secret about it and their mating traditions! But by The Cloud Minders we discover that everyone and their kid sister knows about it!!! Boy that Kirk has got loose lips!
JB

 

[Timo]

Well, Droxine is a well-educated and worldwise member of a high society of scholars. Kirk... Not so much. I gather there are quite a few cases where you'd do better to consult a Stratosian than a Starfleeter.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

Well, Droxine is a well-educated and worldwise member of a high society of scholars. Kirk... Not so much. I gather there are quite a few cases where you'd do better to consult a Stratosian than a Starfleeter.

Timo Saloniemi

There are other Vulcans traders in the galaxy that probably visited Stratos and could have exchanged biological information for their great library. Stratos has been around for centuries and their ore is very valuable.

 

[johnnybear]

I know that Kirk would never betray a confidence especially one from Spock! It was just a bit of fun!
JB

 

[Noname Given]

In Amok Time we learn of Pon Farr and that Vulcans are intensely secret about it and their mating traditions! But by The Cloud Minders we discover that everyone and their kid sister knows about it!!! Boy that Kirk has got loose lips!
JB

I'm of the opinion that it depends on the particular Vulcan. Spock was very private about anything related to Vulcan. There may be other vulcans who are not that secretive about Vulcan society.

Spock stated he hoped he would be spared this, but that the ancient drives were too strong and such a drive finally caught up with him. That leads me to believe Vulkan's can through force of will, skip a cycle; Or that one once married, subsequent cycles aren't as strong.

Also remember that Spock said Pon Far was not a big state or biological secret; It was just a very personal thing that wasn't often talked about and only those outsiders who had been involved previously knew about it.

As far as the cloud minders goes, Spock had about a year to process the experience, and with his full rational mind restored; It was no longer a big deal to him. Again remember when he spoke to Kirk about it he was absolutely emotionally compromised; and dealing with emotions he probably had not experienced for decades.

 

[Poltargyst]

I'm of the opinion that it depends on the particular Vulcan. Spock was very private about anything related to Vulcan. There may be other vulcans who are not that secretive about Vulcan society.

Spock stated he hoped he would be spared this, but that the ancient drives were too strong and such a drive finally caught up with him. That leads me to believe Vulkan's can through force of will, skip a cycle; Or that one once married, subsequent cycles aren't as strong.

Also remember that Spock said Pon Far was not a big state or biological secret; It was just a very personal thing that wasn't often talked about and only those outsiders who had been involved previously knew about it.

As far as the cloud minders goes, Spock had about a year to process the experience, and with his full rational mind restored; It was no longer a big deal to him. Again remember when he spoke to Kirk about it he was absolutely emotionally compromised; and dealing with emotions he probably had not experienced for decades.

Or it may be that Spock hoped he'd be spared because he's half human.

 

[Commishsleer]

If we take into account Voyager and the SFS then Vulcan's have pon farr every 7 years. Literally Spock said they had to go to their home planet to mate but that didn't happen in Voyager and everyone survived. And Spock didn't seem to have a partner after TOS. So how do you reconcile everything?
So I think Spock went through Kolinhar and didn't have to do the pon farr thing anymore. I know Tuvok did but maybe if you have a partner you still have to.
OK maybe you don't have to go back to Vulcan to umm mate and Spock got it wrong. You know his father told him he should and he thought he must go back there. Thought it was safer on Vulcan. Wrong.

And what was he talking about on Stratos? And BTW thank David Gerrold for trying to ruin Vulcans for us there.
So why couldn't he and Droxine have a future?
Droxine was a spoiled racist princess that he just said anything to to get rid of (my favourite).
Droxine didn't want to have sex every 7 years.
Droxine wanted to have sex more than every 7 years.
Droxine didn't want to go to Vulcan every 7 years and be treated like a chattel.
Droxine wanted to rule Stratos and not be available to Spock every 7 years.
Droxine wanted a casual affair FWB and the 7 year thing would get in the way.

Anyway I choose to think that Vulcans (only male) have pon farr every 7 years, they can have relations any other time, if they go through kolinhar they can avoid it and they don't have to go back to Vulcan as seen in Voyager and TSFS

 

[Henoch]

And Spock didn't seem to have a partner after TOS. So how do you reconcile everything?

Genesis-Spock + Saavik...

 

[Timo]

Since the thread is about phrasing, we'd do well to remember that pon farr as explained to us in dialogue is all about mating in the sense of getting a mate, not in the sense of getting to mate. The 1960s wouldn't have it any other way.

Basically, then, the cycle might break whenever a pair is bonded (telepathically, I guess, since the whole thing appears to be based on that), and only start anew when the other half somehow breaks loose (dying is one way, being on the other side of the galaxy and outside telepathy range would be another, but there may also be a divorce spell the Elders can apply, or even a LJBF spell the user him- or herself is capable of using).

We don't exactly hear of Sarek getting bouts of pon farr while married, after all. Even though he'd probably have an excuse, what with his wives not being proper Vulcans. A logical way to have mistresses, that, much superior to taking a single Vulcan wife and then having to settle for these hard-to-get alien creatures for the extramarital stuff.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johnnybear]

According to TNG's Sarek, Picard was reminiscing about going to Sarek's son's wedding! now unless Sarek and Perrin had children together and I doubt they did as it was not mentioned, then it must be Spock!
JB

 

[Timo]

Yes, this is about as obvious as the Klingon Empire having an Emperor...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

So, who's Mrs. Spock? Did he end up marrying his teenage first love, Saavik?