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A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Did Delenn always know this, or did she just learn from the letter?

Delenn didn't know the truth about Valen prior to recieving the letter.
It was a big shock to everyone (characters and viewers).

Well, not quite. Her reaction at the end of WWE pt II is more reserved and knowledgeable. Everyone else was shocked along the lines of what we saw from Marcus. And what's more,
she knew as far back as the Earth/Minbari War. Recall that in the Grey Council chamber towards the end of "In the Beginning", she was present when the triluminary glowed. She knew way back then, that not only did Sinclair have a Minbari soul, but that it was no less than the soul of Valen himself. She even voices this herself. That's why she went to become the Minbari ambassador to B5.
 
A soul is not DNA in Babylon 5. DNA is just chemistry. They make it clear it's something deeper, something else.

Perhaps the Triluminary was indeed set to respond to a specific soul, but as a man of science I would like to believe that it was in fact an advanced DNA scanner.
 
That's the great thing about the Minbari 'soul' thing... Now that the identity of Valen has been revealed, you can interpret it anyway you want.
- Did the device detect a soul? (Or Valen's soul) Who knows...
- Did it detect Valen's DNA? Quite possibly... They would have had his DNA (and the DNA of his descendants) on file. And his Valen minbari DNA would have some similarity to his human DNA.

It works either way.

And GodBen, yes the G'Kar/Londo scenes are indeed great. As for your question about if this future can be avoided? Perhaps... Perhaps not. But we already knew this end from the very first episode! But the twists that lead to this moment are many. And Season 4 and 5 will certainly add some further twists to elaborate the fate of Londo & G'Kar.
 
Which brings us to the question who's the mastermind of this operation if nobody knew for certain what was going to happen? Who coordinated everything from the time rift created by the Great Machine to the Triluminari devices brought to the White Star by Zathras?

The series doesn't give us a straight answer to that but there's only one logical conclusion - the good old Vorlons.

Here's my theory (SPOILERS):

I'm sure taking Babylon Four was not strictly neccessary- the Vorlons, rather than providing a station from the future to replace the fallen starbase, could have supplied a new command base themselves and helped the Minbari win. And they could have altered any old Minbari to be the figure who would inspire victory and unify the Minbari people. Vorlon technology is greater than that of Bab-4, even then. I'm guessing Sinclair/Valen is the real prize, and I suspect the trick was to encourage order by creating a stable time loop and linking Minbari to human "in advance", setting up their pieces for the next Great War.

Bring human DNA into the Minbari populace, encouraging the unity of the two races, but ensure the guy introducing that DNA knows of the future situation and can work to set it up, before eventually being born and being brought back, with knowledge of the future. Then (I assume), when Dukhat makes contact with the humans (it was clear in "In the Beginning" that Kosh and Ulkesh were encouraging Dukhat to find and open relations with the humans), their unity of soul would be discovered, diplomatic relations will commence, and a unity of Minbari and humans will result to form the core of the new order ready to withstand the Shadows. Dukhat would set up that new order, uniting the races, with Sinclair identified as his human counterpart due to being discovered to be "the reincarnation of Valen"- which Dukhat would be looking for (he knows the time-travel human business, as revealed in season four). The humans would be encouraged to build the Babylon Stations, with "accidents" and "sabotage" having to be arranged if they weren't"right", until the "proper" one was made- Babylon Four. Then Sinclair would be put in charge and take it back in time, becoming Valen and sealing the loop while Dukhat remained to lead the war effort in the present. Not only is it easier to unite human and Minbari if you make it so that they are already united, but also the two wars are then connected, an orderly affront to the Shadow's fragmentary chaos (because of course ideology drives the wars). And if something went wrong and history changed, the loop wasn't complete- well, the Vorlons have always been here. Their soul is encoded into a matrix between hyperspace and realspace- they probably wouldn't be effected. The risk was acceptable.

And it did go wrong: the Prometheus fired on the Valen'tha and killed Dukhat- oops. And now a war between the two races of Minbari and humans resulted. Oops. So the Vorlons tried to preserve their master plan- and history- by playing their ace; having Sinclair identified as Valen's "reincarnation" before the Grey Council at the Line ("the truth points to itself!"). The unity was clear- only identified almost too late. The situation was somewhat salvaged. The Babylon stations were made, Sinclair was "watched" by Delenn and the Grey Council, etc. With Dukhat dead, a new nexus and leader was required to lead this war- and Kosh Naranek identified Sheridan as having potential when he arrived on Bab-5 (Bab-4 was stolen successfully, only not yet, so another station was made and the Vorlons saw an opportunity to make this the core of the order for this Great War). Sheridan was not a devout follower like Dukhat, though- he had to be trained, and eventually rebelled, standing up to the Vorlons and ending the cycle of wars.

Also: that may even have been Kosh Naranek's personal plan, depending on how we interpret his character and his choices (he identifies Sheridan, seemingly "sells" Sheridan to his people as an important aspect of the Order (Sebastian recognizes him as an important piece, perhaps indicating the Vorlons have accepted him), tells Sheridan he will die if he goes to Z'ha'dum, then says he knows Sheridan will go and eventually encourages him to "jump" and meet Lorien...). Kosh certainly had character development of a sort- look at the difference between "Midnight on the Firing Line" and the episode with the Dust. And the Kosh fragment helps to take down Ulkesh in the end....


How does that sound?
 
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Well, if true, that explains how the DNA thing could work. On its own, the DNA explanation doesn't work very well. Okay, so Valen and Sinclair have the same DNA... so what? The Minbari obviously ascribe a larger significance to the whole thing, which on the face of it is reincarnation of souls. If we don't believe in souls, then what significance could it have, beyond total coincidence? Your explanation fills that in.
 
The best part of the episode, as you'd expect, is the story of future Londo and how we see him and G'Kar dying with their hands around one another's throats, just as Londo described back in the first episode. Poor Londo, I wonder what it is that's controlling him. And is this the way the show will really end, or has seeing the future allowed Sheridan the opportunity to change it? I guess I'll eventually find out.
Sheridan is hoping to change this future, but you will be able to make the connections at the end of the series to see if he was able to change it or not.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure that the original idea was for Sinclair to come back in time from that future we saw. He looked older because that was his actual age. When the show switched over to Sheridan, they had to come up with a different explanation for Sinclair looking so old. I don't know this for sure, but I bet it's true.
Actually, even when the plan was to have Sinclair there for the five seasons, the aging was going to be because of the time travel, according to some of Joe's early notes we have now been able to read. I think Joe wanted the flexibility to use it either way. Remember, the Starfury pilot that heads to the anomaly in Babylon Squared dies of old age.
 
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All right, I've applied spoiler codes to that part of my post. Would you and Truth Seeker mind doing the same to the parts where you quoted me?
 
Well I just deleted my part. I confused myself though, some of the spoiler came from some other points in later conversation rather than your initial post. I couldn't remember quite where which piece was mentioned when in the series. Oh well, it's just one small point.
 
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Yes, the Minbari (read Grey Council, since nobody else knew) believed Sinclair had Valen's soul, in whole or in part because of his DNA. From their perspective, the trilluminary is a holy relic that was known to have glowed only in the presence of Valen himself (because it was keyed to him), so when they used it on Sinclair and it lit up, they took him as a reincarnation. Nobody but perhaps the Vorlons knew which way around things were and I don't think they saw fit the let the Minbari in on it. Not that the Minbari would ask mind you, they're very discreet like that, even on such seemingly vital matters.

Hang on, Sinclair is Valen?!! What the hell?! Was he always going to be Valen, or did they throw that in because Michael O'Hare left the show? Did Delenn always know this, or did she just learn from the letter? I wonder will I be seeing any of Sinclair's exploits in the past, or is his story over now?

A very good episode all round, it's neat how they took scenes from Babylon Squared and let them play out in this episode. (Although Wikipedia has pointed out a few inconsistencies between the two episodes, but I don't care.) The best part of the episode, as you'd expect, is the story of future Londo and how we see him and G'Kar dying with their hands around one another's throats, just as Londo described back in the first episode. Poor Londo, I wonder what it is that's controlling him. And is this the way the show will really end, or has seeing the future allowed Sheridan the opportunity to change it? I guess I'll eventually find out.

Now might be a good time to go back to 'The Gathering' (special edition only) and watch the bit where Lyta sees Kosh's memory of meeting who he thought was Sinclair. You'll understand part a lot of the spoiler tagging was about back when you watched it the first time. ;)

As for the future...the thing with prophecies on B5 is that the context is everything. Remember how you first presumed that B4 was moved forward in time? Or when it seamed obvious that Londo and G'Kar would kill each other in hatred? So I could say that this is the truth future, but it's not whole truth. There's still pieces you don't have yet.
 
Now might be a good time to go back to 'The Gathering' (special edition only) and watch the bit where Lyta sees Kosh's memory of meeting who he thought was Sinclair. You'll understand part a lot of the spoiler tagging was about back when you watched it the first time. ;)
I don't have the DVD any more, and I'm afraid that some of those spoilers might contain future spoilers, such as how Garibaldi is a secret Vorlon, or something.


Walkabout (***)

A new Vorlon arrives on the station and his name is Kosh, and he is there to replace Kosh so that nobody knows that Kosh is dead, so he obviously wears a completely different encounter suit to Kosh. What? :wtf: Kosh 2.0 isn't making much sense. I mean, Kosh v1.01 didn't make much sense most of the time but that was part of his charm, Kosh 2.0 is just being a bit of a jerk. Godsdamn angels, they never tell me anything. :(

The story about the Shadows feels necessary but not all that interesting. Of course they have to test out whether Garibaldi's revelation about telepaths actually works, but the story itself feels a bit too by the numbers. They fly in with a telepath, they destroy a Shadow ship, the Shadows call for backup, the White Star is disabled, everyone else destroys the Shadow ships. The end. The small sub-plot involving G'Kar serves to make him seem weak, his excuse to Garibaldi for the Narn ship remaining at the station was pathetic. ("But they don't want to go!") We don't even get to see him convince the Narn commander, that happens off-screen.

The walkabout plot involving Dr Franklin was a little better, although it does still have that old television cliché where a serious psychological problem leads to a roll in the hay. I think we can all admit that I have many serious psychological problems, how come women aren't laying down in the hay in front of me? :( Also, for an addict he seems remarkably serene, although it has been a few days, possibly weeks, since he quit.

5/10 for the Shadow story, 7/10 for the Franklin story, 6/10 overall.
 
In a way this new Kosh is like a return to the beginning, but there is a difference between them. Even though the real Kosh was also a bit of a jerk and a very distant figure long time ago, he definitely wasn't as cold and uncaring as this new Vorlon.
 
I don't think the different encounter suit will tip anyone off, it is after all just a suit and the Vorlon ambassador getting a new change of clothes for the first time in 3 years probably won't arouse too much interest. Not when folks are more focused on the Shadows rampaging across the galaxy.

As for Franklin's addiction, you'll see later why he seems to be coping so well with going cold turkey stims.

Trivia time: The new Vorlon is actually called Ulkesh, though you won't hear that name on the show (it comes from 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows' one of the canon novels.) You've actually seen him before, right at the beginning of 'War Without End', talking with Rathann on Minbar. That bit about "we are all Kosh" was just him being awkward, possibly mixed in with a bit of what passes for grief and irritation for a Vorlon. But yes, this guy is a distinctly different personality.
 
In a way this new Kosh is like a return to the beginning, but there is a difference between them. Even though the real Kosh was also a bit of a jerk and a very distant figure long time ago, he definitely wasn't as cold and uncaring as this new Vorlon.
True. I mean, when the Vorlon's fragged Deathwalker, ol' Kosh was at least kind enough to let the younger races know, "You aren't ready for immortality." I bet Kosh2 would have just given 'em the silent treatment.:evil:
 
Just don't spoil too much about the upcoming mirror universe episode with Vir as a gay dominatrix.

"You've been a bad boy, Mr.Morden" :lol:

Let's also make sure that we don't spoil anything about Marcus's famous threesome with Ivanova and Lyta!
 
Okay, these faux-spoilers are getting silly.

Like that time when Scott Bakula dresses up as a scary monster and chases Sheridan and Garibaldi around Brown Sector. Don't know why JMS was so insistent in actually doing that episode, but I guess he couldn't pass up the chance at featuring Bakula on his show.
 
Like that time when Scott Bakula dresses up as a scary monster and chases Sheridan and Garibaldi around Brown Sector. Don't know why JMS was so insistent in actually doing that episode, but I guess he couldn't pass up the chance at featuring Bakula on his show.
True but at least it's not like that season 1 episode with Londo cheating at Poker. Some facets of the B5 universe are better left untouched.

And Bakula didn't have to dress as a woman for a change.
 
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